England 6N 2016 - General Chit Chat

[Maverick1987]

How much actual real money of yours would you lay on not seeing Ford-Faz come next week bar injury?

Because I'm betting nothing.

Sorry I meant I think it's only here short term . He's seen that it has no real potential but will serve as a stop gap until Slade or Tuilagi are back or someone else is good enough to barge their way in

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Interesting here in the last paragraph . He's been trying Daly out at inside centre ..... Maybe the Ford/Faz axis has already been thrown out by Jones ?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ru...likens-centre-New-Zealand-legend-Ma-Nonu.html

Interesting to hear him say "Daly obviously gives us in that he could potentially play 12, 13, 15 and left wing". Sounds to me like he is definitely looking at getting him into the squad. Amazing to think we could go from having a completely useless midfield for year to one that could contain Tuilagi, Sam Hill, JJ, Daly and Slade, a real mix of playing styles there and all pretty good at what they would be chosen for. Completely unproven so far but the first time I've been at all excited about England midfield since JJ first appeared in it 2 years ago.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Odds on Burrell getting a game before Daly?

 

[The Jones Boy]

Ireland are a good side but with the loss of key players to injury and the results of the first two games has hurt their morale, they are ripe for the taking at Twickenham by England.
England need to show more patience when they are in possession and it will start to come for them.

 

[Maverick1987]

Odds on Burrell getting a game before Daly?

Maybe but it's probably only because he's relatively experienced . He's playing fairly well atm too to be fair

Eddie has already talked about winning the 6N is the main thing . My views mirror some others on the forum where I think we will see more changes in the summer than now . If Eddie can seal the ***le or dare we dream a grand slam he will have a great spring board for the summer and on

 

[Peat]

Sorry I meant I think it's only here short term . He's seen that it has no real potential but will serve as a stop gap until Slade or Tuilagi are back or someone else is good enough to barge their way in

Truth - I just don't think Daly will be the person to barge in as things stand.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Truth - I just don't think Daly will be the person to barge in as things stand.

I think I'm in the minority who aren't particularly upset by that.

 

[Maverick1987]

Truth - I just don't think Daly will be the person to barge in as things stand.

No I think Daly should go head to head with JJ for the 13 shirt and I really do believe he will take the 23 shirt at some point .

Interesting Eddie mentioned Daly on the left wing . I think he has the skills to play on the wing really well . What does everyone else think about that ?

Btw Rats I'm with you I'm not outraged like some are . I'm pleased he's playing well because competition usually bring higher standards but JJ has credit in the bank and I can't wait to see him play outside someone other than Faz or Barritt . Tuilagi will probably make more space for him and we know how dangerous he is in those positions

 

[j'nuh]

Quite worried about this line on Tuilagi by Jones: I think 12's his best position, yes. He's not a 13. That's what I know he's not. He's definitely a 12. He can carry the ball across the gain line.

Tuilagi's an absolute class act at 13, it's not even questionable. I don't know whether we'll look back on his career and say it was his best position, but he's proven himself to be a top-end 13 on the international stage. Regularly our best back in that position. To move him to 12 is self-confidence. To do so, flat out denying that he's a 13 is uncomfortably arrogant.

There may come a time when he wants to backtrack on that decision, and he's made it needlessly a matter of personal pride. It's not a clever move.

Odds on Burrell getting a game before Daly?

Maybe, though I reckon both of them are so far down the pecking order that Jones won't change anything until Tuilagi is back. And then when Slade and Devoto are back in time for the summer, Daly and Burrell will be out of the picture entirely.

Things might get interesting if Ford, Farrell or Joseph picked up an injury though.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Quite worried about this line on Tuilagi by Jones: I think 12's his best position, yes. He's not a 13. That's what I know he's not. He's definitely a 12. He can carry the ball across the gain line.

Tuilagi's an absolute class act at 13, it's not even questionable. I don't know whether we'll look back on his career and say it was his best position, but he's proven himself to be a top-end 13 on the international stage. Regularly our best back in that position. To move him to 12 is self-confidence. To do so, flat out denying that he's a 13 is uncomfortably arrogant.

There may come a time when he wants to backtrack on that decision, and he's made it needlessly a matter of personal pride. It's not a clever move.


Maybe, though I reckon both of them are so far down the pecking order that Jones won't change anything until Tuilagi is back. And then when Slade and Devoto are back in time for the summer, Daly and Burrell will be out of the picture entirely.

Things might get interesting if Ford, Farrell or Joseph picked up an injury though.

I think it's more Tuilagi is not what HE wants as a 13, he is exactly what Jones wants at 12 (and tbh so do most sides) but is not what jones wants at 13. Tuilagi has been very destructive there but the rugby norm is to have the bulk at 12 and the speed at 13. Also he had good things to say about Daly so I don't think he is someone that won't be considered at all.

 

[Maverick1987]

I think it's more Tuilagi is not what HE wants as a 13, he is exactly what Jones wants at 12 (and tbh so do most sides) but is not what jones wants at 13. Tuilagi has been very destructive there but the rugby norm is to have the bulk at 12 and the speed at 13. Also he had good things to say about Daly so I don't think he is someone that won't be considered at all.

+1

 

[stus768]

Quite worried about this line on Tuilagi by Jones: I think 12’s his best position, yes. He’s not a 13. That’s what I know he’s not. He’s definitely a 12. He can carry the ball across the gain line.

Tuilagi's an absolute class act at 13, it's not even questionable. I don't know whether we'll look back on his career and say it was his best position, but he's proven himself to be a top-end 13 on the international stage. Regularly our best back in that position. To move him to 12 is self-confidence. To do so, flat out denying that he's a 13 is uncomfortably arrogant.

There may come a time when he wants to backtrack on that decision, and he's made it needlessly a matter of personal pride. It's not a clever move.


Maybe, though I reckon both of them are so far down the pecking order that Jones won't change anything until Tuilagi is back. And then when Slade and Devoto are back in time for the summer, Daly and Burrell will be out of the picture entirely.

Things might get interesting if Ford, Farrell or Joseph picked up an injury though.

Are you still taking what Jones says seriously?

 

[TommyV]

What do people think about Slade's chances long-term at 10? All the talk seems to be about him at 12 but if Tuilagi ends up nailing down that position could there be an opportunity for Slade at fly-half? One of Faz' main strengths (his goal-kicking) has been letting him down of late and there's obviously question marks about how creative he can be, whilst Ford's form has been poor and there are worries about his defensively, could Slade provide a good balance there by ticking both boxes?

I guess a lot depends what Exeter are going to do with him, Devoto and Hill.

 

[yaboyjj]

Brookes may be in contention for the 23 this week.
4 weeks since recovering from a knee operation, he has played 4 consecutive games as starter for 70+ minutes, including the full 80 this weekend. Is this good practice or acceptable player management by Mallinder?
The motives are obvious, since he was winning them scrum penalties, but that belies the point.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

What do people think about Slade's chances long-term at 10? All the talk seems to be about him at 12 but if Tuilagi ends up nailing down that position could there be an opportunity for Slade at fly-half? One of Faz' main strengths (his goal-kicking) has been letting him down of late and there's obviously question marks about how creative he can be, whilst Ford's form has been poor and there are worries about his defensively, could Slade provide a good balance there by ticking both boxes?

I guess a lot depends what Exeter are going to do with him, Devoto and Hill.

He looks a 10 all day long to me, and while Ford, Faz and Cips all have strengths, they all have pretty obvious weaknesses. Slade doesn't, but he can't be considered at 10 unless he's playing there regularly for the Chiefs. Smartly with Tuilagi - I think Jones has it spot on with him at 12, but he has to prove himself in that position with Tigers.

 

[j'nuh]

I think it's more Tuilagi is not what HE wants as a 13, he is exactly what Jones wants at 12 (and tbh so do most sides) but is not what jones wants at 13. Tuilagi has been very destructive there but the rugby norm is to have the bulk at 12 and the speed at 13. Also he had good things to say about Daly so I don't think he is someone that won't be considered at all.

Tuilagi's best trait is his ability to break tackles and beat defenders. Those opportunities won't come as often at 12. If Jones can make him into Nonu, then that's okay. But it seems like making a player change their game to grow into someone else's shadow (an all-time great, at that) rather than make it on their own two feet with their own strengths, is the wrong way to go about things. Tuilagi doesn't have anywhere near the same all-round skill set of Nonu, he's more alike to Roberts. And I've always felt that Roberts would benefit more from moving to 13 than Tuilagi to 12...

I'm not entirely dismissing the idea of Tuilagi as a 12 though. He could be great, and it's definitely worth the risk given our lack of options. But it's really not as clear cut that it would be a good move for Tuilagi as Jones makes it seem, and I would like us to have a back-up option of recalling him as a 13, with Slade or Hill at 12, if things go wrong.

As for Jones wanting a particular kind of 12, I've always felt the best coaches are able to adapt their tactics to suit their players, rather than adapting their players to meet their tactics. We don't have Nonu, we have Tuilagi. I hope Jones realises that.

What do people think about Slade's chances long-term at 10? All the talk seems to be about him at 12 but if Tuilagi ends up nailing down that position could there be an opportunity for Slade at fly-half? One of Faz' main strengths (his goal-kicking) has been letting him down of late and there's obviously question marks about how creative he can be, whilst Ford's form has been poor and there are worries about his defensively, could Slade provide a good balance there by ticking both boxes?

I guess a lot depends what Exeter are going to do with him, Devoto and Hill.

Yeah, I have a lot of time for the idea of Slade as the long-term 10.

 

[nickdnz]

Tuilagi is clearly a 12.5 - which means the only way to fix the issue is moving Tuilagi to 12 - and then find a player with the same skillset and limitations to move to 13. Maybe fast track Ben Te'o

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Tuilagi is clearly a 12.5 - which means the only way to fix the issue is moving Tuilagi to 12 - and then find a player with the same skillset and limitations to move to 13. Maybe fast track Ben Te'o

Then moan in the press about how the balance is all wrong, then just switch their shirt numbers and say it's all suddenly amazing.

 

[Peat]

I think it's more Tuilagi is not what HE wants as a 13, he is exactly what Jones wants at 12 (and tbh so do most sides) but is not what jones wants at 13. Tuilagi has been very destructive there but the rugby norm is to have the bulk at 12 and the speed at 13. Also he had good things to say about Daly so I don't think he is someone that won't be considered at all.

Traditionally Jones likes his straight line runner at 13 and an out and out playmaker at 12 though. In his previous sides, Tuilagi would so be the 13. And now he's saying a dude who made his international debut at 20 at 13, who fits the template pretty well, isn't? Well, ok... thing is, this...

Are you still taking what Jones says seriously?

Is the size of it for me.

 

[Maverick1987]

Tuilagi's best trait is his ability to break tackles and beat defenders. Those opportunities won't come as often at 12. If Jones can make him into Nonu, then that's okay. But it seems like making a player change their game to grow into someone else's shadow (an all-time great, at that) rather than make it on their own two feet with their own strengths, is the wrong way to go about things. Tuilagi doesn't have anywhere near the same all-round skill set of Nonu, he's more alike to Roberts. And I've always felt that Roberts would benefit more from moving to 13 than Tuilagi to 12...

I'm not entirely dismissing the idea of Tuilagi as a 12 though. He could be great, and it's definitely worth the risk given our lack of options. But it's really not as clear cut that it would be a good move for Tuilagi as Jones makes it seem, and I would like us to have a back-up option of recalling him as a 13, with Slade or Hill at 12, if things go wrong.

As for Jones wanting a particular kind of 12, I've always felt the best coaches are able to adapt their tactics to suit their players, rather than adapting their players to meet their tactics. We don't have Nonu, we have Tuilagi. I hope Jones realises that.


Yeah, I have a lot of time for the idea of Slade as the long-term 10.

Tuilagi is very young though . He could easily become Nonu lite if he works on his offload/passing game . He's already looked to have improved that . Before Manus career was stalled by injury was Nonu as good as Manu at the same age (22) ? I think Manu was better at that age