England 6N 2016 - General Chit Chat

[ncurd]

Italy were shot by the time Itoje & Clifford came on, it was a big first half forward battle. Hask and Robshaw would've looked a lot better coming on then too. Care also benefited where Youngs could not.

Care benefited from playing behind a more dynamic pack that much is certain.

I agree Hask and Robshaw would of looked better playing at the 60 minute mark fresh compared to how they started but I'm a long way from being convinced that they would of played better than Itoje and Clifford.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Couldn't agree more on Haskshaw, but leave Billy out of it! Billy is a very good carrier, more dynamic than he's given credit for, and he continually breaks the gainline and makes metres - and that's when he's the only threat, imagine how dangerous he'd be if defences had to watch out for his brother, and Clifford, and Itoje as well!

Fair point. But while Billy has been excellent I still see him as a bit one dimensional. Once Hughes is available (sorry!) I expect him to become first choice in fairly short order. And as for Mako, I don't think there's a more frustrating player in the squad but his scrummaging is still not good enough for him to be a regular starter.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Binny is a bit one dimensional but he's excellent at that dimension,
At the moment, despite still really impressing, he's not able to reak as much havoc because everyone knows that our flankers offer no threat.
Switch in Itoje and/or Clifford to keep defences on their toes and i think Binny will clean up.

 

[Peat]

Still think 6. Vunipola 8. Hughes has real legs once he's qualified...

Hask and Robshaw were ok. The breakdown was a mess, which is not solely their fault, and their carrying games never got underway, which is weird as they were both better at that under Lancaster, but they did good things. It's the partnership I object to, not the players.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Binny is a bit one dimensional but he's excellent at that dimension,
At the moment, despite still really impressing, he's not able to reak as much havoc because everyone knows that our flankers offer no threat.
Switch in Itoje and/or Clifford to keep defences on their toes and i think Binny will clean up.

It also allows him to be less one-dimensional as he can focus more time and energy on other aspects of his game.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Still think 6. Vunipola 8. Hughes has real legs once he's qualified...

Hask and Robshaw were ok. The breakdown was a mess, which is not solely their fault, and their carrying games never got underway, which is weird as they were both better at that under Lancaster, but they did good things. It's the partnership I object to, not the players.

Boooooooooooooooooo
Pack for Summer
1) Vunipola, 2) George, 3) Brookes
4) Launchbury, 5) Kruis
6) Ewers, 7) Clifford, 8) Vunipola

Bench
16) Hartley (meh), 17) Marler, 18) Cole
19) Itojie, 20) Beaumont

That is sexy as furk cus,

 

[Maverick1987]

Boooooooooooooooooo
Pack for Summer
1) Vunipola, 2) George, 3) Brookes
4) Launchbury, 5) Kruis
6) Ewers, 7) Clifford, 8) Vunipola

Bench
16) Hartley (meh), 17) Marler, 18) Cole
19) Itojie, 20) Beaumont

That is sexy as furk cus,

Swap Clifford with Kvesic and you're right on the money !

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Swap Clifford with Kvesic and you're right on the money !

I'm trying to be more realistic.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm trying to be more realistic.

Then put Haskell and Robshaw back in there

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Swap Clifford with Kvesic and you're right on the money !

Clifford's a better player than kvesic though. Kvesic is weak and not up to international rugby according to Lancaster and Jones. The fact they'd rather have Haskell at 7 speaks volumes for his performance in training.

 

[MarkyH]

Clifford's a better player than kvesic though. Kvesic is weak and not up to international rugby according to Lancaster and Jones. The fact they'd rather have Haskell at 7 speaks volumes for his performance in training.

Thing is, I want to see Kvesic for England, however I've only ever seen him play when we played Argentina away a couple of years ago. I want him in purely on stats and turnovers won etc... Question I should ask, and maybe we have some Gloucester fans here, is he really that good? What do we see that the coaches don't or vice versa?

 

[Maverick1987]

Clifford's a better player than kvesic though. Kvesic is weak and not up to international rugby according to Lancaster and Jones. The fact they'd rather have Haskell at 7 speaks volumes for his performance in training.

Kvesic is not weak . Rats is gonna kick your ass for this comment !!! Haha

And the fact Lancaster didn't pick him means nothing . He's left plenty of good players in the cold

 

[Crapspray]

I think Jones has been looking to change flankers fairly soon, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was quietly confident of getting results against Italy and Scotland and using the time to experiment.

He's now seen, albeit for short periods (blindside - openside):

Robshaw - Haskell
Haskell - Clifford
Itoje - Robshaw
Itoje - Clifford

Only Robshaw - Clifford and Itoje - Haskell are missing. And we've seen the former at Quins.

Mind you, no flankers have been absolutely outstanding so far this Six nations, so maybe Jones will try and ride Robshaw and Haskell through to the summer.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think Jones has been looking to change flankers fairly soon

Why do you think that?
It goes against everything he's said the past couple of weeks

 

[Crapspray]

Clifford's a better player than kvesic though. Kvesic is weak and not up to international rugby according to Lancaster and Jones. The fact they'd rather have Haskell at 7 speaks volumes for his performance in training.

I'd be happy to bet it was more to do with Jones being unaware of Kvesic, who has two caps from three years ago, and being aware of Haskell from the Six Nations and World cup. Jones has also said that he sees Clifford long-term at 8.

To be honest Kvesic is shilled on here by so many because he's one of the only [good] England qualified 7s out there* and that's what Eddie made a big fuss about when he was outside looking in. Maybe it will change with Underhill appearing and Fraser replacing his glass bones with metal ones, but short-term he's the only fetcher in England who's consistently shone**.



*Some bloke called Seymour keeps getting mentioned, but I've never noticed him. Ever. Very average player.

**Again, someone kept mentioning some other 7 who shone a lot, but I never saw it. Easy to shine at a club as poor as Sale.

- - - Updated - - -

Why do you think that?
It goes against everything he's said the past couple of weeks

Just looking at the way he's combined/timed his subs. If he was bringing Itoje on, why move Robshaw across for five minutes if he's going off for Clifford? Surely he would just bring Robshaw off and then sub Haskell for Clifford? Unless Haskell was tired/injured.

That and wishful thinking, I suppose. But he has maintained Haskell was always "short-term". It just might be shorter than he originally anticipated.

I also think Jones is happy to just fire chaff at the media so they don't know where to place him and keep him in the headlines ahead of the players.

EDIT: Just checked it and Itoje came on during the 55th minute, Clifford on at 63.

 

[ncurd]

Personally whilst I support the Clifford/Itoje revolution I don't honestly see it happening during the 6 nations. I think we'll see a gradual transition to the team Jones wants to play from the team Lancaster had.

Only real question is my head is Hartley is his captain clearly but how long can Hartley keep George out the team

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Walking to work this morning I was trying to figure out what England pack I'd like to see and it nearly did my head in. For the next game:

1. Marler as the better scrummager
2. Hartley as he's skip
3. Cole with Brookes on the bench.
4. Kruis. He's looking more and more the part.
5. Itoje. I totally see him as a 6, but maybe it will be easier to blood him as a lock. He's been playing there all season and is used to being alongside Kruis. Harsh on Launch, but he's not really pulling up trees. I also wouldn't want to see Clifford and Itoje in the same back row....yet.
6 or 7. Clifford. Even if he's not a real 7 he'll at least inject some pace
7 or 6. Haskell. For now. He's made a few meaty interventions, while I've been a bit disappointed by Robshaw - right that he was given the chance but I don't think he's really taken it.
8. Billy

And come the summer, you have Underhill and Hughes entering the equation not to mention the likes of Beaumont and a hopefully reinvigorated Morgan. If everyone's fit, I truly have no clue what the back 5 will look like, but just hope that 3 or 4 emerge and really seal their places.

In the backs, the only change has surely got to be OF to 10 and Hill in at 12.

 

[Wendigo7]

Same exact 23 kept for the Ireland game in training this week.

 

[Peat]

Same exact 23 kept for the Ireland game in training this week.

With Devoto as injury cover for Goode who has sustained a minor ankle injury.

Not entirely happy as the 6-2 split would be an unnecessary risk imo and the 10-12 axis has an awful lot to prove.

 

[Wendigo7]

With Devoto as injury cover for Goode who has sustained a minor ankle injury.

Not entirely happy as the 6-2 split would be an unnecessary risk imo and the 10-12 axis has an awful lot to prove.

The team hasn't played half as badly as you are making out though Peat.

Will they win the Slam/Tournament. Don't know. But they can only do what they are asked. 2 games in. 2 wins, 2 clean sheets with teams who've scored freely against others. I'd be fairly content.

I'd be surprised if Itoje doesn't start though. I got the feeling Jones might do it with his conference response.