England 6N 2016 - General Chit Chat

[j'nuh]

 

[Lé Ddanno]

The team hasn't played half as badly as you are making out though Peat.

Will they win the Slam/Tournament. Don't know. But they can only do what they are asked. 2 games in. 2 wins, 2 clean sheets with teams who've scored freely against others. I'd be fairly content.

I'd be surprised if Itoje doesn't start though. I got the feeling Jones might do it with his conference response.

Jones' conferences, interviews, quotes and soundbites are borderline meaningless and perhaps best dismissed outside entertainment purposes. He games the media as much as he can, ignores whatever they write afterwards and then gets on with whatever it was he already had in mind. And I quite like that after the last few years where we almost knew the team before the coaches did.

Edit: from what I have seen and purely in my own egotistical opinion. Basically Itoje isn't starting. Or maybe he is.

 

[Peat]

The team hasn't played half as badly as you are making out though Peat.

Will they win the Slam/Tournament. Don't know. But they can only do what they are asked. 2 games in. 2 wins, 2 clean sheets with teams who've scored freely against others. I'd be fairly content.

I'd be surprised if Itoje doesn't start though. I got the feeling Jones might do it with his conference response.

I'm confused as all hell as how you get me saying anything about the team from that, other than I believe the 10-12 axis isn't much cop. 6-2 splits are unnecessary risks for everyone, that's not a comment on England.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Whilst I agree it's a horrid risk, I can see some (ill)logic in it. Ireland have been the biggest and most successful proponents of the forward crush strategy in recent years, so maybe he wants try to and beat them at their own game whilst some key lynchpins of their pack are MIA.

Can't say I agree with it, mind.

 

[Wendigo7]

I'm confused as all hell as how you get me saying anything about the team from that, other than I believe the 10-12 axis isn't much cop. 6-2 splits are unnecessary risks for everyone, that's not a comment on England.

Rant aside Farrell's done a pretty decent job at 12. Is he the greatest 12 in the world, no and probably will look more at the 10 spot when Slade and Manu are available.

But for now he's playing well.

Btw, Kruis is comfortably at the moment the best lock in the tournament

 

[Peat]

Rant aside Farrell's done a pretty decent job at 12. Is he the greatest 12 in the world, no and probably will look more at the 10 spot when Slade and Manu are available.

But for now he's playing well.

What's he doing well? Because it's certainly not his ball carrying and as I think Ford wants a 12 that offers a ball-carrying line-threatening option, I'd dissolve the partnership.

Btw, Kruis is comfortably at the moment the best lock in the tournament

What a very ugly thing to say about this tournament ^_^

Still, I'll wait for the end before making too many definite judgements.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Right after the first 2 rounds I'm going to do an /10 for the England squad.
Mako- 7/10. Nice touches, Scrum hasn't been bad either. His main positive is that he brings another good carrying option, and his weaknesses aren't so weak.
Marler- 6/10. His defence has been quite destructive. But his carrying is non-existent, 1 carry in 2 games.
Hartley- 5.5/10. Lineout is alright, so is scrum. However he does very poorly around the field. 17 tackles in 2 games ain't bad, 3 missed tackles isn't great. What stats don't show is the way he isn't dominant in collisions.
Cole- 5/10. Scrum has been good, he has got over the ball and is still good around the park. But 5 !!!!! Penalties in 2 games!!!!!!!!!
Kruis- 8.5/10. Done okay calling the lineout but he has been ***anic in defence and at the ruck. 29/34 tackles, 4 Turnovers Won, Stole 2 lineouts and taken 14. Could easily become Captain. Now Slater and Attwood will have an issue being the next enforcer.
Launchbury 7/10. First game wasn't great, looked great v Italy. 13/14 Tackles 2 turnovers won.
Lawes 6/10- THink he's been okay. Now his carrying isn't good, 14m from 9 carries. But he has started taking the ball at pace.
Haskell 7/10. 26/26 tackles this year and (apart from the penalty against McClean) they have been big, big hits. 3 pens givens away in 1 game is not good enough.
Robshaw 6/10- 20/20 Tackles, but not as dominant. Won some turnovers but 10 carries 7 meters.
BVunipola 8.5/10- 113m 41 Carries 19/22 Tackles 2TW. He has been a talisman and is Vice Captain. 23 Years Old with 23 caps already.
Care+Youngs 6/10- Might as well write the same thing. Both look great off the bench but neither fill me with confidence to control a game from minute 1.
Ford 6/10- Not really done that well but he isn't playing in a backline that suits him. Manu will help this team a lot, so would Slade I would guess. Made 8/10 tackles but god I wish I could find meters in the tackle.
Farrell 6.5/10- I think he's done okay. His passing has been good and has got 2 try assist. His pass for Fords try didn't get the credit he deserved IMO, moving one way and throwing the ball the other through a gap. The issue is this isn't his position. If he was on the pitch and 2 players go down injured, I don't have an issue him being shoved in. Hill should play but Farrell hasn't done awful. 20/25 tackles 9C 18M is in line with other 12s we've used.
Joseph 8/10- 84m 16c. A hattrick did cover over his underwhelming first game but he's still been good. 13/16 tackles, 2 TW, 2 CB, 2 DB
Nowell 7.5/10- 64m 13c. Great at everything, his defence has been stout and attack strong. 2 CB, 3 DB, 3 TW
Watson 7/10- 126m 13c. He is again great. Our 11 and 14 have been really good, making meters and defence hasn't been an issue. 6 DB 2 CB
Brown 6/10. People giving Farrell grief should look at Brown under performing in his own position. 97m 19c 2 DB 0 CB has been alright but has butter fingers. Still would have over Goode, but Pennel....
Goode 5.5/10- 40m from 2 carries looks good but he hasn't really shown anything 1 DB 1 CB.
Hill- 5.5/10- Only a small amount of game time.
George 6.5/10- He showed real promise again. Because of the captain he wont get game time this year.
Itoje 6.5/10- He done really well, gave away a pen on the line which is always dangerous. 4/5 tackles 2 TW 7M 4C Lineout Steal was Incredible
Clifford 6.5/10- 5/5 Tackles 9m 3c Looks intl' standard
Devoto 5/10- Haven't remembered anything he's done. Has he played?

Anyway feel free to rip this apart and make me feel bad and want to quit this forum.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

I'd agree with much of that. However;
Generous score for Hartley
Cole has always been a bit of a penalty machine. Seems to suffer from SBS as per our next suspect
Haskell should be docked points for yet another bout of silly bugger syndrome
Farrell likewise, and other than decent goal kicking I see nothing that Burrell or even 36 don't offer
Nowell deserves more, I can't recall a mistake he's made
Itoje is a borderline 10 when you consider how much game time he's had. Even more so considering it was his first cap
Devoto hasn't made it onto the pitch

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Haskell has made big hits?
Hartley has been destructive on defence?

:huh: :huh: :huh:


I'd have said they've both been incredibly passive in their defence (and rucking).

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Haskell has made big hits?
Hartley has been destructive on defence?

:huh: :huh: :huh:


I'd have said they've both been incredibly passive in their defence (and rucking).

I remember Haskell doing quite a few big hits.

Hartley and Cole for me are both 5s, people seem to slate hartleys carrying and rucking but Cole is 10x worse.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I remember Haskell doing quite a few big hits.

Hartley and Cole for me are both 5s, people seem to slate hartleys carrying and rucking but Cole is 10x worse.

Carrying yes but rucking disagree.

Mind If Brookes was 100% like George is there would be more of an debate.

(Fingers crossed Brookes will be ready to go in two weeks for England)

 

[TheSaffycen]

Haskell has made big hits?
Hartley has been destructive on defence?

:huh: :huh: :huh:


I'd have said they've both been incredibly passive in their defence (and rucking).

Not sure if you're misreading what I've put but I said the opposite about Hartley.
Haskell IMO has been very dominant, I recently re watched the Italy game and i'd say every tackle was dominant (apart from cover tackles from others missed)

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Woops, I read marlers line for Hartley! :lol:

 

[TommiG88]

I think launchbury and lawes should be the same. Both made good impacts but haven't had the best games when starting.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Thought I would do /10s for units of the team
Defence-
7/10 We haven't conceded a try and we have been much more destructive. As a defence plan, we are in a very good position. We do miss too many tackles, and not 'good' missed tackles. Campagnaro had a field day, against a better team like Wales Davies will also have fun.
Attack-
6/10 Haven't really looked dangerous, but have scored 7 tries in 2 games. Maybe over time we will look better and on the dry ground in Italy we looked slicker than before.
Scrum-
8/10 Full 80 minute performances now and we started walking Italy back. Scotland have a strong scrum and with France we will find the truth.
Lineout-
6/10 Get some good ball of the top but we don't look secure. Borthwick will hopefully make us SA esque but will need more time.
Maul-
7/10 Looks good but we don't seem to utilise enough.

 

[Peat]

Anyway feel free to rip this apart and make me feel bad and want to quit this forum.

*salutes*

Right after the first 2 rounds I'm going to do an /10 for the England squad.
Mako- 7/10. Nice touches, Scrum hasn't been bad either. His main positive is that he brings another good carrying option, and his weaknesses aren't so weak.
Marler- 6/10. His defence has been quite destructive. But his carrying is non-existent, 1 carry in 2 games.

About right, although I'm not going to blame Marler for not carrying if his job is to ruck, not carry (and he wasn't part of our worst half at the breakdown so far), so maybe bring them a half point closer? I also think Marler's been slightly better in the scrum, although both have done better when coming off the bench.

Hartley- 5.5/10. Lineout is alright, so is scrum. However he does very poorly around the field. 17 tackles in 2 games ain't bad, 3 missed tackles isn't great. What stats don't show is the way he isn't dominant in collisions.
Cole- 5/10. Scrum has been good, he has got over the ball and is still good around the park. But 5 !!!!! Penalties in 2 games!!!!!!!!!
Kruis- 8.5/10. Done okay calling the lineout but he has been ***anic in defence and at the ruck. 29/34 tackles, 4 Turnovers Won, Stole 2 lineouts and taken 14. Could easily become Captain. Now Slater and Attwood will have an issue being the next enforcer.

I have a bone to pick with the lineout and I think mainly with Kruis (who's only stolen 1 lineout by the stats). We only lost one against Scotland, but another two came back very loose; against Italy, we lost 4 out of 13 which is flat out smack on the wrist time. I would say the lineout isn't good enough.

Also on the subject of Kruis, given he was the non-carrying lock during that first-half abortion at the breakdown against Italy, I'd question him being ***antic at the ruck (and would point out turnovers won probably includes a large number of different methods including choke tackles - impressive figures, but not proof of efficiency at the breakdown).

I remain unconvinced by the hype of him in other words; he's clearly useful, but I get the feeling some people want me to think of him as a special talent, and I just don't see it, unlike...

Launchbury 7/10. First game wasn't great, looked great v Italy. 13/14 Tackles 2 turnovers won.
Lawes 6/10- THink he's been okay. Now his carrying isn't good, 14m from 9 carries. But he has started taking the ball at pace.

Should be remembered that Launchbury has a stomach bug the night before Scotland and there were doubts over Lawes' fitness for that game too.

We simply have better continuity when Launchbury is on the pitch; he's an openside trapped in a lock's body. I think he's an essential player for us until Jones does something about the ongoing mess that is the back row.

I noticed Lawes' impact at our defensive maul against Scotland, it's something he's really good at, and I think 14m from 9 carries is actually a really good return for a man who mainly carries at crowds. Plus Lawes got a steal against Italy (our only one).

I'd start them together. Kruis does a lot of good things, but there's nothing I can think of where he's world class; that's what he needs to change imo.

Haskell 7/10. 26/26 tackles this year and (apart from the penalty against McClean) they have been big, big hits. 3 pens givens away in 1 game is not good enough.
Robshaw 6/10- 20/20 Tackles, but not as dominant. Won some turnovers but 10 carries 7 meters.

Haskell's carried 8 times for 2m. I think both of them are suffering from Lawes' problem - they're being asked to do hard yards and you never get good returns from that. Hask's hit hard, but given that Robshaw has carried better and won the ball where Haskell has lost it, I don't think if anything Robshaw has been the better of the two.

BVunipola 8.5/10- 113m 41 Carries 19/22 Tackles 2TW. He has been a talisman and is Vice Captain. 23 Years Old with 23 caps already.

Being a sourfaced killjoy, I'd love to see his carrying stats without the kick returns, but he's unquestionably been our best forward.

Care+Youngs 6/10- Might as well write the same thing. Both look great off the bench but neither fill me with confidence to control a game from minute 1.

Youngs didn't look great off the bench tbf. I prefer Youngs to Care as a general rule, but he's definitely been the worst off the two so far. Care's kick for Joseph's try was game changing genius.

Ford 6/10- Not really done that well but he isn't playing in a backline that suits him. Manu will help this team a lot, so would Slade I would guess. Made 8/10 tackles but god I wish I could find meters in the tackle.
Farrell 6.5/10- I think he's done okay. His passing has been good and has got 2 try assist. His pass for Fords try didn't get the credit he deserved IMO, moving one way and throwing the ball the other through a gap. The issue is this isn't his position. If he was on the pitch and 2 players go down injured, I don't have an issue him being shoved in. Hill should play but Farrell hasn't done awful. 20/25 tackles 9C 18M is in line with other 12s we've used.

I'm unsure about these two. I really don't like how they play together, but they are popping up with tries and assists, so maybe they're doing ok? Eh. Right now I think they're consistently doing flat and poor things with the odd killer blow.

Ford is flat out not getting enough credit for the things he did well. His up and under that set up his try was superb. He's a better territorial kicker than Farrell... and also a better goal kicker at the moment, 7/11 kicks from the first two round for Farrell is flat out not good enough and more should be made of it.

Btw, 9C 18m is only in line with Barritt. Pretty much everyone else there we've tried could carry.

I am praying very hard that Tuilagi will be fit enough to be included for Ireland, mad at that might be.

Joseph 8/10- 84m 16c. A hattrick did cover over his underwhelming first game but he's still been good. 13/16 tackles, 2 TW, 2 CB, 2 DB

The first game... not his fault if no one gives him the ball in a good position! Great second half vs Italy, but watching him (and Farrell) get sat down by Campagnoro wasn't such a great moment.

I think he and the outside backs are somewhat wasted at the moment, they're living off of scraps. I wouldn't call them great, but they've done what's in front of them, other than Brown, who's definitely playing within himself.

Goode 5.5/10- 40m from 2 carries looks good but he hasn't really shown anything 1 DB 1 CB.
Hill- 5.5/10- Only a small amount of game time.
George 6.5/10- He showed real promise again. Because of the captain he wont get game time this year.
Itoje 6.5/10- He done really well, gave away a pen on the line which is always dangerous. 4/5 tackles 2 TW 7M 4C Lineout Steal was Incredible
Clifford 6.5/10- 5/5 Tackles 9m 3c Looks intl' standard
Devoto 5/10- Haven't remembered anything he's done. Has he played?

Devoto didn't play. I feel like N/A would be the right score for Devoto, Goode, Hill and George (although George has made a big impact in his few minutes) - simply not enough time.

Itoje was frighteningly good against Italy, but Italy post-surrender simply isn't a standard to judge by. Clifford's carried well but is he going to be the solution to our breakdown? Dubious.

Haskell's carrying stats are really weird. He's not that bad. We really don't seem to have got our attacking game going here, there's not enough pace or variation of the angle and point of attack. Pace isn't helped by some pretty indifferent rucking.

A lot of work ons for my money. Everything's looked good in patches but I couldn't name a single aspect of our game that's gone genuinely well over two games. Fortunately Ireland have just as many.


edit: Some Eddie comments - http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/35599136

 

[ratsapprentice]

Agree with the majority of that /\

Don't see why people are so enamoured with Kruis.

 

[Maverick1987]

Agree with the majority of that /\

Don't see why people are so enamoured with Kruis.

He's fairly clearly been our best lock over the 2 games . The line out at times has been frustrating but with only 2 jumpers it makes it far easier to get picked off

He's not been unbelievable but he's been pretty solid if you ask me

 

[Peat]

He's fairly clearly been our best lock over the 2 games . The line out at times has been frustrating but with only 2 jumpers it makes it far easier to get picked off

He's not been unbelievable but he's been pretty solid if you ask me

Pretty solid is fair, maybe a little understated bar for the lineout (which is indeed a bit short on jumpers), but that's probably fair for Launch and Lawes too. I don't think there's much between them in terms of performance.

I probably shouldn't have concentrated so much on the negatives but hey, I agreed with the positives but thought the negatives were missing.

When you look at the locks' performances, and then at the back rows' performances, the case for Itoje in the back row grows imo - not least because the extra jumper helps the lineout. Even if its just a short term expedient.

 

[TheSaffycen]

I think Kruis is getting a lot of plaudits because he's played to a higher level than previously. When a lot of the forwards, bar Billy, aren't performing that well he's bound to look even better.