England 6N 2016 - General Chit Chat

[j'nuh]

Why? I'm saying nothing in it :lol:

I mean, I don't think I like what's going on either. But we've really not got a lot of data going on for judgement and analysis. Anyone wanting to make big sweeping statements about Jones atm, they're giving hostages to fortune imo.

J'nuh gets to be prophet or fool. Good on him going balls to the wall, it keeps the place lively... said he preparing to take the wee out of him if it goes sour :lol:

I did save 20% so I wouldn't have egg on my face. Sheesh.

Furthermore anyone criticising haskells carrying must remember that he is as good as carrying in the premiership as kvesic. So you can't assume that kvesic would be any better in an international game.

But he isn't as good at carrying as Kvesic in the Premiership.

 

[Mumbles119]

Regarding the Jones approach in general:

Option 1: he is a massive ARU plant and troll. I don't really believe this, but sometimes wake up at night panicking this might be true!

Option 2: he says all the right things, i.e. need a true 7 etc... but can only do the talk and cannot demonstrate any walk. I don't really believe this either, considering his past record and results.

Option 3: he is says all the right things, but it is all part of a longer plan which starts with low risk change. This is one I believe more (if only for my sanity)

I think this third option is proven by a few things:

Firstly what Eddie Jones has been tasked with by the RFU - win! This explains the use of experienced capped players that have beaten 6N opposition before. Plus someone else mentioned this year the world rankings will set the RWC 2019 pools (anyone confirm this?) so again winning is an absolute must this year.

Secondly, if Eddie is working within the scope of 'must win', his changes will be evolution not revolution, and the group of forwards selected for this weekend could be the first part of that plan by beginning the evolution on just the pack rather than the backs as well (too much change = too much risk). Including the ability to start the game with the experience capped players, and then use the bench to see if his new talent does actually achieve what he said he wants from the forwards - more speed, more aggression, more dominance.

Thirdly, Eddie is well aware and has stated recently that Haskell/Robshaw are 6s not 7s, but he does want a 7. So why not Kvesic? Kvesic is still part of the selected EPS and is obviously being looked at, so Eddie know he could be one option for a future 7. But he is tasking Kvesic to go and work on his strengths even further, and his perceived weaknesses too. This would link with the words Eddie Jones used to describe Maro, that the right development is needed to make sure they can be a 60/70 test cap player not just a 10/20 test cap who was used too early. I would feel safe in assuming that Eddie is applying this development philosophy to all potential new England players, which again points towards the win now with low risk change and develop a bigger future for England success by evolving longer term and not rushing a revolution

With all of this, it is frustrating as even an armchair fan like myself can see the problem areas clear as day - lack of breakdown operators and dysfunctional mid-field. But, I suppose this third option of means we must give Eddie time, and should expect win by any means necessary this year, but next year start to see the exciting evolution start to form.

 

[Maverick1987]

Has anyone picked up on sky that he mentions he's upped the forwards on the bench to 6 for his week and might go to 7 next game !!!! Haha

 

[Peat]

I did save 20% so I wouldn't have egg on my face. Sheesh.

Blatant arse covering doesn't count now ^_^

Tbh there is at least a fair chance this'll come through for you anyway. I'm currently musing to myself, as a thought experiment, what would happen if you cloned a high end international rugby coaching team and stuck them down in each Tier 1 country, who'd end up on top; I can't decide whether England are in a weak place due to the low stocks of genuinely quality experienced internationals, the slow style of the AP and the club vs country thing, or whether the big stocks of young talent (plus financial weakness in a lot of our rivals) puts us in a good one. Anyone leaning to the former would probably put Jones on 50-50 to succeed at best anyway...

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

You speak a lot of sense Mumbles, I guess people are put off by the fact we were fed the whole "building over 4 years to the world cup" under Lancaster only to have everything abandoned once we actually got there and resulting in the worst ever WC performance by a host nation. Hearing the building for the future line is something that becomes harder to believe after that.

 

[nickdnz]

Has anyone picked up on sky that he mentions he's upped the forwards on the bench to 6 for his week and might go to 7 next game !!!! Haha

You gotta have a real lack of faith in the fitness of your squad to go with 6. 7 is just plain dumb.

 

[Peat]

You gotta have a real lack of faith in the fitness of your squad to go with 6. 7 is just plain dumb.

Nothing to do with fitness, everything to do with wanting to look at options in a game he thinks England will win come what may.

7 is just an example of Eddie Jones running his mouth for his own amusement and won't actually happen.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If we want to look at options then why have both haskell and Robshaw starting?
They're two of our most experienced players and we know exactly what we're going to get from them

 

[Peat]

Hopefully it's because he wants to see them in a more expansive game plan.

And we can't be sure that what Lancaster got from them is what Jones will get from them.

 

[Every Time Ref]

7 is just an example of Eddie Jones running his mouth for his own amusement and won't actually happen.

I think you're absolutely right. No danger of it actually happening.

There's been a lot (already) of EJ running his mouth for his own amusement, and he's going to have to be careful not to **** people off. He is not here for his own amusement; he's here to coach a nation which expects him to succeed not go around trolling the public for lolz.

Unless his media strategy is for no-one to ever really know what he's thinking or planning, maybe he feels being too cosy with the media isn't good for the squad and is looking to build a siege mentality. I have a lot of time for that approach - I don't think we the public have a right to know what his game plan or strategy is before we see it on the pitch. So if that's his plan I'm behind it (as long as he's winning games) but he needs to be careful how he plays it, because if people think it's just a big old Mourinho ego trip they are not going to stand for it unless he's very successful on the pitch.

And we can't be sure that what Lancaster got from them is what Jones will get from them.

Hard to see how he's going get an extra yard of pace out of them though

 

[corny]

Plus someone else mentioned this year the world rankings will set the RWC 2019 pools (anyone confirm this?) so again winning is an absolute must this year.

The draw for the group stage takes place in December of this year apparently.

I'd say your right too that it'll be a factor in selection this year for the home nations.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Something I've just noticed.... the Italian lineout that Itoje disrupted leading to a turnover - he doesn't actually get lifted - he just jumped up! :lol:

 

[ncurd]

Something I've just noticed.... the Italian lineout that Itoje disrupted leading to a turnover - he doesn't actually get lifted - he just jumped up! :lol:

Yeah they were lauding that in the commentary it was truly impressive. I really struggle to think of a reason to start with Haskell and Robshaw for Ireland. I know someone may say they have experience but it's just experience losing crucial games for England.

Tired legs I know but the way they were playing was leagues ahead.

 

[YoungScud]

Pity they didn't notice his knock on

 

[Every Time Ref]

Pretty sure I know what the chat is going to be on this thread over the next fortnight - back row. So let's get going.

There's no doubt at all in my mind that either Itoje or Clifford, probably Itoje, has to come in. The difference they both made was staggering, because they were doing everything with power and speed - whether carrying, tackling or rucking they looked explosive while Hask and Robshaw looked lumbering, as they always have. So one of those two MUST make way for one of the young flankers.

I've been hesitant to endorse two back row changes because I see the value in not pushing the evolution too fast - so I wouldn't be too upset to only see one change. However, the marked difference in both players today, and the sheer mediocrity of both the "old guard" was very, very clear. I'm wary of falling for a "narrative" where all the old players are useless, and all the new ones brilliant, but on the England flanks today it really did look a lot that way. So, I am I think now convinced that two changes for the Ireland game is not too much of a risk.

Billy continues to impress me, and with the carrying of both Itoje and Clifford added to England's armoury, and defences unable to simply triple-mark him, he could be even more dangerous.

There is an option of looking at Itoje at lock and Clifford on the flank I suppose. I'm against this for two reasons. Firstly, I like Kruis and Launchbury. Secondly, Itoje played well at 6, which should earn him a call up to 6. It doesn't necessarily prove he can play lock internationally.

Something I've just noticed.... the Italian lineout that Itoje disrupted leading to a turnover - he doesn't actually get lifted - he just jumped up! :lol:

I thought it looked that way at the time but assumed I was mistaken. Will have to look again. No way in hell Haskell or Robshaw could do that.

Tired legs I know but the way they were playing was leagues ahead.

Even in the first minute Robshaw and Haskell looked slow and undynamic. Nothing to do with being tired in my opinion.

 

[McTallshort]

Yeah they were lauding that in the commentary it was truly impressive. I really struggle to think of a reason to start with Haskell and Robshaw for Ireland. I know someone may say they have experience but it's just experience losing crucial games for England.

Tired legs I know but the way they were playing was leagues ahead.

Haskell's England's days are over IMO. Like I posted elsewhere, itoje, Clifford, Binny backrow with Bill's lad on the bench.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Two things from the games so far:

If we insist on picking a monster pack that's not really suited to a fluid game, why on earth don't we maul more? It's a great way of tiring the opposition and tying them in to make space. It is allowed more than 5 metres from the try line.

Both in the back line and back row in particular we need some dynamic carriers - running on to the ball at speed and accelerating into contact or better still, space. Players who have real intent to make ground rather than just seeking to recycle for the sake of keeping possession. Haskell, Robshaw and Billy are all very strong and industrious but they don't have a fast twitch fibre between them and what's good enough to duff up Scotland and Italy won't be causing the SH any sleepless nights. The bit I don't get is that we have a huge player base and the reputation for spending too much time in the gym yet without Manu we have no real power in the backs; I don't want to see 7 unisized flankers behind the scrum but Roberts and North yesterday showed the value of a powerful back or 2.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I 100% advocate two backrow changes.
If they're good enough they're ready, and the two young lads brief cameos have blown the incumbents out of the park

 

[Every Time Ref]

Haskell, Robshaw and Billy are all very strong and industrious but they don't have a fast twitch fibre between them and what's good enough to duff up Scotland and Italy won't be causing the SH any sleepless nights.

Couldn't agree more on Haskshaw, but leave Billy out of it! Billy is a very good carrier, more dynamic than he's given credit for, and he continually breaks the gainline and makes metres - and that's when he's the only threat, imagine how dangerous he'd be if defences had to watch out for his brother, and Clifford, and Itoje as well!

The bit I don't get is that we have a huge player base and the reputation for spending too much time in the gym yet without Manu we have no real power in the backs; I don't want to see 7 unisized flankers behind the scrum but Roberts and North yesterday showed the value of a powerful back or 2.

I do feel we need one battering ram in the centres, and in the absence of Tuilagi that would have to be twelve because we have good options at 13 (I'd be looking hard at Hill). However it seems EJ wants a second-five style IC, so our power will have to come from elsewhere.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. It starts with Ro and ends with ko.

 

[Colombia]

Pretty sure I know what the chat is going to be on this thread over the next fortnight - back row. So let's get going.

There's no doubt at all in my mind that either Itoje or Clifford, probably Itoje, has to come in. The difference they both made was staggering, because they were doing everything with power and speed - whether carrying, tackling or rucking they looked explosive while Hask and Robshaw looked lumbering, as they always have. So one of those two MUST make way for one of the young flankers.

Even in the first minute Robshaw and Haskell looked slow and undynamic. Nothing to do with being tired in my opinion.

Italy were shot by the time Itoje & Clifford came on, it was a big first half forward battle. Hask and Robshaw would've looked a lot better coming on then too. Care also benefited where Youngs could not.

In truth, the game was won in the first 50 mins.