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England 6N 2016 - General Chit Chat

6-2 bench is mental.

We're now actively not looking at potential centres.
Jones said Daly and Joseph his two 13s.....why not have Daly on the bench to come on with 20 to go? And also cover 15 just in case?

I just don't understand Jones. and I'm not dissing his coaching or anything, as it's too early to tell, but everything he's saying to the press, and his selections, are just baffling.
 
Agree with 1 & 2 but the rest are pure opinion.
I don't understand the love-in on here for Kvesic. He has played for England before and didn't show anything, played for Saxons and not been outstanding and it seems he is not in EJ's plans at the moment for the squad he is using.

It's all pure opinion, of course it is. What specifically do you disagree with?

Englands' problems seem to stem from a mindset that has been ingrained about the overuse of muscle power and being able to play in multiple positions. Jones's comments about fitness were revealing and while he knows he has to change the system, he knows that it will have to be second nature to be effective and that can only come with time and a younger set of personnel balanced with winning matches.

I don't see how this is an argument against Kvesic? Muscle power, multiple positions and lack of aerobic fitness are 100% what Kvesic does not represent. He is a not-notably-powerful specialist openside with a good engine.
 
I am have literally no idea what's meant to happen if there's an injury outside 9. That's just bizarre. A one position man covering six? Hokay.
 
**** me.

All that *****ing about Lancaster's weird selections, and two games into the new regime Alex Goode is our only back on the bench.

Alex ****ing Goode. Is our only ****ing back sub. Alex. ****ing. Goode.
 
6-2 bench is mental.

We're now actively not looking at potential centres.
Jones said Daly and Joseph his two 13s.....why not have Daly on the bench to come on with 20 to go? And also cover 15 just in case?

I just don't understand Jones. and I'm not dissing his coaching or anything, as it's too early to tell, but everything he's saying to the press, and his selections, are just baffling.

I get the feeling that's the point. I don't think he has much interest in whether they are the best technical player or have the most ability, they need a hell of a lot more to impress him. Very strong all round, leadership and aggression.

Which is why at the moment, only Vunipola, Kruis, Farrell and Hartley in his eyes (might not be the case) are the only ones he's backed up his views on. The rest and I mean all of them, are on borrowed time. Even the half backs have to show sheer aggression in the way they play it seems. Everything is going up an awful lot. Doesn't seem too impressed by the AP, or the other NH nations and is going batter them until they reach the level he feels is acceptable. He's just throwing stuff at the press to keep them comfy, the players too I would hazard a guess at.

Also, bear in mind, Jones was the coach who specifically brought Goode through at Sarries and made him switch from 10/12 to 15. He will really, really rate him.

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You could also state, he really doesn't rate Italy that much that he's just not bothered too much on what they do, he believes we will win by that much it's merely a training run for him to test the forwards and if he has to carry a disjointed set of backs, he will do so.
 
Bull****.

He's been man of the match in at least two of his five (?) senior England appearances, outperforming players like Wood and Haskell significantly on multiple occaisions.

He has 2 caps both in Argentina on the 2013 tour and the only MOM he has been awarded was from Lancaster after he played in a non-cap midweek game against the Crusaders in the summer 2014 tour to NZ.

I'm not saying he's not a good player, just that I don't understand why people on here keep going on about him as if he's the answer to all our problems.

Anyway come the summer the talk will be about Sam Underhill at openside flanker.

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It's all pure opinion, of course it is. What specifically do you disagree with?

I don't see how this is an argument against Kvesic? Muscle power, multiple positions and lack of aerobic fitness are 100% what Kvesic does not represent. He is a not-notably-powerful specialist openside with a good engine.

Didn't say I disagreed with anything, but maybe Kvesic will be part of the new system once the mindset has been changed.
 
So the side is in all likelihood as the journos and sky are pretty much in one now:

1. Mako Vunipola
2. Dylan Hartley
3. Dan Cole
4. Courtney Lawes
5. George Kruis
6. Chris Robshaw
7. James Haskell
8. Billy Vunipola
9. Ben Youngs
10. George Ford
11. Jack Nowell
12. Owen Farrell
13. Jonathan Joseph
14. Anthony Watson
15. Mike Brown

Subs:
16. Joe Marler
17. Jamie George
18. Paul Hill
19. Joe Launchbury
20. Maro Itoje
21. Jack Clifford
22. Danny Care
23. Alex Goode

Thoughts:

- 6/2 Split. Probably Eddie will set them to run amuck with the ball and it will be another good way for him to weed out who he doesn't think is good enough ball in hand.
- 40 minutes first half and will want to build up about a 20/25 point lead at a guess. Hammer the point home with the kids in the second half against a tired Italian pack.
- Itoje seems to be seen as a lock and a flanker... could come on at 6? Clifford for Vunipola at 8? Haskell to be kept because he's pretty good on the clearouts and fulfilled his role well last week?
- Hill gets his first cap is a big plus, George seeing more minutes.
- Youngs being given a start to see how he goes. Controls the game better than Care and will look to snipe through midfield.
- A lot of up and unders I reckon in the first half to isolate Parisse and put the Italian pack under pressure.
- Defence won't be tested too much I imagine.
 
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I'm not saying he's not a good player, just that I don't understand why people on here keep going on about him as if he's the answer to all our problems.

No one is saying that - people are saying he's the solution to very specific problems in our back row, which have fairly significant ramifications.
 
I've just thought, maybe Jones is taking the Lancaster lot through the 6N to see if he could win with the same players as Lancaster...

Not that that would actually achieve anything.
 
That was also Lancasters plan and look how it turned out... That plan involves getting good players in to begin with. Sure stick with them if things go wrong a bit but if they are repeatedly showing the same problem every single game, how need to drop them. Lancaster stuck with the wrong players for too long to begin with then our last 2 years had a fair bit of changing about and then absolutely everything went out the window for the world cup.
Using Wales as an example. Gatland picks a 23 which he tries to keep intact. When players lose form, they are given the chance to keep their place, but gradually they are replaced. In any given window, a couple of players might lose their place for non-injury reasons, but generally the squad is kept in place.

England's problem is that they have tried, and failed, to make this system work with players that will never have the quality to tie down a first choice spot. It's easy to keep a spine intact if the spine picks itself. You look at players like Alun Wyn, Faletau, North, Jenkins, Lee, Halfpenny, and how often are they not the form pick?

And so I expect "revolution then consistency". Overthrow swathes of the squad that aren't deemed to be up to it long-term and replace them with players with the ability to tie down their position. The aim should be to have a squad that picks itself. Then in any given window, you'll be able to make a small number of replacements without worrying about destroying the synergy of the team.

He has 2 caps both in Argentina on the 2013 tour and the only MOM he has been awarded was from Lancaster after he played in a non-cap midweek game against the Crusaders in the summer 2014 tour to NZ.

I'm not saying he's not a good player, just that I don't understand why people on here keep going on about him as if he's the answer to all our problems.

Anyway come the summer the talk will be about Sam Underhill at openside flanker.
He's clearly not the answer to all our problems.

But selections at openside flanker have been contentious in England for years. They were under Ashton. They were under Johnson. They were under Lancaster. And now they are under Jones. How far back do we have to go before the first-choice openside was a specialist? Before Lewis Moody at the very least. (Lewis Moody's own words: England, historically over the years, have never had an out-and-out seven barring Neil Back, really he was the only one.)

People care because it's symptomatic of the kind of problems England historically face. Every new coach comes in, there's a swelling of excitement, and then they make the same mistakes as previous coaches. And England's failure to be anywhere near up to the task in the breakdown comes up time-and-time again. It's worrying because if coaches are unwilling to solve the more obvious problems that your standard supporter notices, what hope do they have of solving the more subtle issues?
 
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I've just thought, maybe Jones is taking the Lancaster lot through the 6N to see if he could win with the same players as Lancaster...

Not that that would actually achieve anything.

It'd be a waste of a quarter of a WC cycle if that were the case.

In fairness, if it turned out these were the best players for him to win things with, then it wouldn't be a waste. That would be quite a surprise to me, but if he wins he wins. If he can bring it out of those players then we're in a great position.

There's a lot of things being said about Jones and his selections right now when I don't feel we know all that much for certain about what Jones is about and where this is going. Some of his decisions are absolutely baffling at the moment given what we've seen of the players but we should probably wait and see where this is going first (yes, I know, I don't always practice what I preach) even if it is incredibly frustrating to see stuff like Goode as sole back cover (even if it almost definitely won't affect the result, it's baffling on a number of levels).

And, tbh, whatever Jones did, there was probably always going to be some wastage from this first 6N. Can't be helped.
 
I do really think we should be rotating the squad and starting XV. I'd also love to see Kvesic, Itoje, Daly and Clifford all start. Maybe even Hill at IC but that just isn't going to happen...

However....

The squad and players picked, have all been on winning teams against the Irish, Welsh and French. They are experienced, and are good players even if they aren't the players we want to see. This 6N we have the 2 best teams at home in Ireland and Wales, and therefore represents our best chance of winning the tournament or even a slam. I think EJ wants that done first, remove the whole pressure of us not winning a tournament in 5 years. It may not be pretty. Blood the younger talent from the bench. We will see more players in the summer, autumn and ready for next years 6N. We will forget if we lose a summer tour to Aus, or the odd Autumn international aslong as we are giving talent a chance.... But we do want a 6N championship victory.... and that's what EJ is trying to do (i hope)
 
This thread is remarkably similar to last week and this week's England match thread?
 
I may be alone in this- but I feel Harry Mallinder could be a real bolter for the IC spot in the summer. I was very very impressed with him vs Quins particularly, he may be a bit raw atm, but looks to have the passing ability of Slade at centre, but with a lot more bulk. Burrell was made to look great by him- and that takes some doing.
I guess he is a very similar player to Devoto- but imo with a much higher ceiling and better skill set.

Personally I would like to see Slade as first choice fly half for England by the AI's, we need a big guy at 12- Tuilagi is obviously the forerunner atm but his injury record makes it unwise to build a backline around him.
Mallinder looks like the kind of player who would bring the best out of Daly/Joseph by straightening the line, drawing the d and making well timed passes/offloads. Obviously early days yet- but one to watch out for (he should get a run of games for the Saints now at least- none of this Burrell to IC rubbish anymore)
 
Hasn't he only played a handful of games? If that?
Devoto and James should/would be ahead of him
 
Mallinder is more likely a bolter for next years summer tour TBH.

Wouldn't mind seeing James in some time but he would need to move first ;)
 
Such a shame that the Saxons is a bag of crap cause I'd much rather the younger guys be given a shot than the inevitable call ups for 36, barritt, lee Dickson, etc.etc.
There should be an age or cap limit.
 
Is the U23 tour going ahead?

1) Auterac, E.Waller
2) Walker, McGuigan
3) Thomas, Sinkler, Genge
4) Barrow, (?)
5) Merrick, Ewels
6) Underhill, Ludlam
7) Harrison, Ludlow
8) Chisholm, (?)
9) Braley, Mitchell
10) Harris, Loz,
11) Addison, Earle
12) Mallinder, Williams
13) James, Thompkins
14) Walker, Collins
15) Haley, Ransem

Stuck on a couple of positions I think I have forgotten some players.
 
I do really think we should be rotating the squad and starting XV. I'd also love to see Kvesic, Itoje, Daly and Clifford all start. Maybe even Hill at IC but that just isn't going to happen...

However....

The squad and players picked, have all been on winning teams against the Irish, Welsh and French. They are experienced, and are good players even if they aren't the players we want to see. This 6N we have the 2 best teams at home in Ireland and Wales, and therefore represents our best chance of winning the tournament or even a slam. I think EJ wants that done first, remove the whole pressure of us not winning a tournament in 5 years. It may not be pretty. Blood the younger talent from the bench. We will see more players in the summer, autumn and ready for next years 6N. We will forget if we lose a summer tour to Aus, or the odd Autumn international aslong as we are giving talent a chance.... But we do want a 6N championship victory.... and that's what EJ is trying to do (i hope)

Look mate . You're coming in here with your sensible thinking and ruining our love for scrapping everything and playing loads of teenagers haha
 
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