England 6N 2016 - General Chit Chat

[Which Tyler]

Guess who only weighs 100kg?

...One half of Pooper.

Oi!, you're NOT cutting my puppy in half; even if she is nearly half of 100kg!

 

[Every Time Ref]

Kvesic won't help every other English player be better at the breakdown. That comes from better coaching.

I think done people on here don't want to admit it but kvesic can't be a brilliant international in waiting if two coaches don't look at him.

A reasonable point. But can EJ be so certain that it isn't even worth giving him a shot - when there are no other specialists of his type available?

Guess who weighs in at 188cm and 107kg?

I'll give you a clue, he's just retired, having won the Webb Ellis for the 2nd time running.

I always said he'd never amount to anything

 

[Every Time Ref]

To elaborate - the logic as I see it which makes giving Kvesic a shot a no-brainer goes like this:

1. To be among the top teams in the world, capable of mixing with the very best, a team needs at least one forward with the highly specialised skill of stealing opposition ball.

2. There is no established England player who fits this bill. Therefore, to be capable of mixing with the very best England need to find one.

3. Kvesic is that type of player.

4. Kvesic consistently performs brilliantly performing this role at domestic and Saxons level.

5. There are no other realistic options of this type of player available to England.

Now, I may be an idiot who is missing something fundamental, but I believe all of these to be true. Which of these do we think EJ might disagree with? Or, what other factor am I not seeing which is such a huge negative that it counterbalances all of these - to the extent that he isn't even worth taking a chance on?

 

[Tony Manx]

Well I will reserve judgement to see facts rather than newspaper rumors before piling in other than to say two things:

- any team manager who gears his team around just one man....whoever it is.... Is asking for trouble!!

- Jones has been quoted as actually saying on the record that he wants to have two or three people in each position by the next RWC!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

From rats laverly stats thread:
Kvesic:
58 carries, 153m - 2.64m avg
Robshaw:
71 carries, 124m - 1.75m avg
Haskell:
65 carries, 116m - 1.78m avg

Haskell has 3 times the clean breaks of Kvesic/Robshaw so you'd expect him to have more metres.

Seriously, what is Eddie Jones smoking?

 

[Wendigo7]

Sky reporting:

- Launchbury dropped from the 23 entirely
- Lawes to start, Itoje to bench
- New starters in Youngs, Mako and Lawes
- Itoje and Clifford to bench
- NO space for Beaumont
- Backs unchanged

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

To elaborate - the logic as I see it which makes giving Kvesic a shot a no-brainer goes like this:

5. There are no other realistic options of this type of player available to England.

If EJ shares that view, he may also think that every time Kvesic gets injured / loses form / needs subbing the whole balance of the back row and arguably game plan would have to change.

 

[McTallshort]

Sky reporting:

- Launchbury dropped from the 23 entirely
- Lawes to start, Itoje to bench
- New starters in Youngs, Mako and Lawes
- Itoje and Clifford to bench
- NO space for Beaumont
- Backs unchanged

Do coaches not read this forum?

 

[Every Time Ref]

If EJ shares that view, he may also think that every time Kvesic gets injured / loses form / needs subbing the whole balance of the back row and arguably game plan would have to change.

That's a good point which I hadn't thought of.

However I still believe point 1 - all top teams have a fetcher, and it's a fundamental part of being a top team in the modern game. So I still believe you are better off having one established fetcher, and working around the loss if he does get injured

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Sky reporting:

- Launchbury dropped from the 23 entirely
- Lawes to start, Itoje to bench
- New starters in Youngs, Mako and Lawes
- Itoje and Clifford to bench
- NO space for Beaumont
- Backs unchanged

Is Launch injured?
I hope this is just him being rested - he wasn't at his usual standard vs Scotland but he's easily our best lock.
There's nothing Lawes does that's better than Itoje - if Launch was sitting out I would've expected the Sarries pair to start in the donkey row.

Can't believe he's starting the same flankers.
Can believe he's not using Beaumont (too Northern).

Do coaches not read this forum?

If the RFU read this forum then you and I would've been named England coaches months ago.
Useless sods.

 

[Which Tyler]

If the RFU read this forum then you and I would've been named England coaches months ago.
Useless sods.

Dodged a bullet there then!

 

[Peat]

Is Launch injured?
I hope this is just him being rested - he wasn't at his usual standard vs Scotland but he's easily our best lock.
There's nothing Lawes does that's better than Itoje - if Launch was sitting out I would've expected the Sarries pair to start in the donkey row.

Can't believe he's starting the same flankers.
Can believe he's not using Beaumont (too Northern).

Launch had a stomach bug night before the Scotland game. No idea if he's still being bothered.

But... me, myself, I look at a regime that's preaching aggressiveness, confrontation, needle, picking lots of chippy and mouthy characters in the leadership group and I look at Launchbury... quiet, never punched anyone, not a bruising powerhouse...

And I wonder how long he's for a Jones team.

Maybe not at all long.

 

[j'nuh]

Is Launch injured?
I hope this is just him being rested - he wasn't at his usual standard vs Scotland but he's easily our best lock.
There's nothing Lawes does that's better than Itoje - if Launch was sitting out I would've expected the Sarries pair to start in the donkey row.

This is part of the problem of having enormous depth.

Any time a player drops slightly in standards, they are at risk of being binned instantly because there are no end of players that could replace them.

Contrast to smaller nations who simply don't have the options. They stick with their players through their weaker patches, and they come out stronger and more experienced for it. Without changing much, the team grows together and everyone is on the same page.

This is what Jones should be aiming for. A spine to the team that rarely changes, with the aim of growing together. And Berry would surely be one of the first picks for any kind of long-term English plan.

Launch had a stomach bug night before the Scotland game. No idea if he's still being bothered.

But... me, myself, I look at a regime that's preaching aggressiveness, confrontation, needle, picking lots of chippy and mouthy characters in the leadership group and I look at Launchbury... quiet, never punched anyone, not a bruising powerhouse...

And I wonder how long he's for a Jones team.

Maybe not at all long.

If it became clear that Launchbury isn't in Jones' plans, I think I would cry.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

This is what Jones should be aiming for. A spine to the team that rarely changes, with the aim of growing together. And Berry would surely be one of the first picks for any kind of long-term English plan.

That was also Lancasters plan and look how it turned out... That plan involves getting good players in to begin with. Sure stick with them if things go wrong a bit but if they are repeatedly showing the same problem every single game, how need to drop them. Lancaster stuck with the wrong players for too long to begin with then our last 2 years had a fair bit of changing about and then absolutely everything went out the window for the world cup.

 

[Peat]

Ragerancher, are you arguing against the plan, or arguing against doing it wrong and pointing how how it's been done wrong in the past?

 

[johnmac99]

To elaborate - the logic as I see it which makes giving Kvesic a shot a no-brainer goes like this:

1. To be among the top teams in the world, capable of mixing with the very best, a team needs at least one forward with the highly specialised skill of stealing opposition ball.

2. There is no established England player who fits this bill. Therefore, to be capable of mixing with the very best England need to find one.

3. Kvesic is that type of player.

4. Kvesic consistently performs brilliantly performing this role at domestic and Saxons level.

5. There are no other realistic options of this type of player available to England.

Now, I may be an idiot who is missing something fundamental, but I believe all of these to be true. Which of these do we think EJ might disagree with? Or, what other factor am I not seeing which is such a huge negative that it counterbalances all of these - to the extent that he isn't even worth taking a chance on?

Agree with 1 & 2 but the rest are pure opinion.
I don't understand the love-in on here for Kvesic. He has played for England before and didn't show anything, played for Saxons and not been outstanding and it seems he is not in EJ's plans at the moment for the squad he is using.

Englands' problems seem to stem from a mindset that has been ingrained about the overuse of muscle power and being able to play in multiple positions. Jones's comments about fitness were revealing and while he knows he has to change the system, he knows that it will have to be second nature to be effective and that can only come with time and a younger set of personnel balanced with winning matches.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Ragerancher, are you arguing against the plan, or arguing against doing it wrong and pointing how how it's been done wrong in the past?

The 2nd option. The plan is good but the whole point of having an experienced core is that they are good enough to deserve all the caps they get. Also experience should not automatically trump someone who could be potentially excellent. I don't believe in the concept of "wait your turn" for rugby, get in the best players you can and then build them into a core. Currently a core consisting of our current most experienced players is NOT a good one as they are only that experienced because Lancaster threw a load of caps at them when they weren't good enough.

Also a bit hard to say Kvesic showed nothing for England when he got man of the match for England...

 

[ratsapprentice]

I don't understand the love-in on here for Kvesic. He has played for England before and didn't show anything, played for Saxons and not been outstanding and it seems he is not in EJ's plans at the moment for the squad he is using.

Bull****.

He's been man of the match in at least two of his five (?) senior England appearances, outperforming players like Wood and Haskell significantly on multiple occaisions.

 

[Wendigo7]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ru...ebut-England-RBS-6-Nations-against-Italy.html

Sky are right it seems.

Changes are those I said above, but 6-2 split on bench:

Marler, George, Hill, Launchbury, Itoje, Clifford, Care, Goode

He seems hell bent on running that pack into submission. Itoje's debut finally

 

[jordiev]

eddie jones seems to be doing his best stuart lancaster impresson after giving it mouth before getting the job.