England 2022/23

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Isiekwe returning for Sarries this weekend. Good to see and good timing.

Will be interesting to see who out of tizzard and Isiekwe starts at TH lock when all are fit.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Will be interesting to see who out of tizzard and Isiekwe starts at TH lock when all are fit.

At club level it might be Tizard with Isiekwe on the flank.

But internationally I don't think Tizard should be in the conversation yet. I think he might get caught between the 2 stools of not being leaping salmon enough for the line out and not being quite big and powerful enough to be a Skelton / Willemse type bruiser.

Jones was always lukewarm on Isiekwe. I have a feeling that he might be more Borthwick's type of player.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

At club level it might be Tizard with Isiekwe on the flank.

I reckon Itoje might go to 6 - Isiekwe has bulked up a lot since moving to tighthead lock

 

[Booboobang]

I reckon Itoje might go to 6 - Isiekwe has bulked up a lot since moving to tighthead lock

I would be interested how that goes long term, Itoje was amazing at 6 very early in his career, wonder if he gets back to that if he plays week in week out.

 

[BPM]

Front row surely LCD and George will be 1st and 2nd choice. McGuigan has to be in, maybe Walker who is very good at the set piece. Genge and Sinks will be there. Heyes and Rodd as 3rd choices? We need prominent scum, LH is easily Marler or give a chance to VRR. Bit harder at TH I would say either Cole or if he doesn't want to take a risk due to age maybe a shot to Schonert who has scrum well for Sale. Can't really think.of any other THs who will offer a dominant scrum.

There is a need for a TH lock in too but with Isiekwe and Chessum back I think they should do ok. Itoje, Ribbans and add in Lawes and Martin as Borthwick likes a good line out option at 6, the 2nd row looks a lot better imo. Dombrandt comes in as the big bruiser at 8 but the only other big 8s are Tom Willis or Barbeary neither I think will be in and with Mercer not over yet I think Simmonds will still be replacement 8. Curry/ Earl and Jack Willis as the 7s and I think that's a good pack bit the depth chart there is incredible. Question about RUAN Ackerman too as a potential 8 as Borthwick does like a big 8.

JVP and Young's at 9? I don't mind as long as you have another young 9 like Quirke or Mitchell and Young's is there as in more of a coaching role. Farrell as at 10 as he should be. Atkinson maybe or Fin Smith if Ford and Marcus are injured? Kelly at 12 but add Lawrence into the fold with Slade and then one of Porter/Northmore/Lozowski as cover at centre as utility backs. Another call is Daly? He is playing well atm and offers a good kicking option. In the backs we surely need a physical option so Coka/OHC/Murley are ake your pick. Steward will be 15 but add in Watson/Freeman or Radwan who offer a more dynamic approach. Cases for someone like Malins or and hear me out Furbank, if Smith and Ford are injured then you will certainly need another 10 who at least has some ex experience.

I agree with a fair bit of this.

Re. Cole, Borthwick was only singing his praises a week ago and will know exactly what he brings. The RWC is only a year off, so age becomes a bit less of a factor with no obvious younger contenders ready to go. Schonert is decent enough, but if it's him or Cole, there's only one winner.

I never even thought about Ackermann for England TBH. I'm inclined to say no, simply on the basis that he is not English in any way shape or form … but as you say, he might appeal to Borthwick. I wouldn't describe Dombrandt or Tom Willis as 'big bruisers' though. They're big enough, but neither are bulldozer types and are far more likely to run at spaces (or at least soft shoulders) rather than running at faces. I'd say the same for Mercer too, so IMO, it makes far more sense to develop a game plan that suits three very good young 8s, rather than a limited one that only really suits Billy (or maybe Ackermann).

Slade and Lawrence are obvious choices at centre, along with Marchant (assuming he's still eligible for the RWC squad), but personally, I'm not sure Porter, Northmore or Lozowski are good enough. They're OK as squad cover, but I wouldn't really want to see any of those three starting for England. I'd far sooner invest in fast-tracking Kelly and Will Joseph who look like the future.

As a general point, I'm not sure we can confidently say we know Borthwick's style right now. From what I've seen at Tigers, he's not wedded to one gameplan and isn't purely pragmatic as some have suggested. I think we can definitely say he's very detail focused and will focus on the basics first, but I think there is evidence to suggest he's willing to embrace more mercurial talent too.

 

[Geordie]

I wonder if Joel Kpoku might head back to England...although he seems to be loving it in france.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

At club level it might be Tizard with Isiekwe on the flank.

I reckon Itoje might go to 6 - Isiekwe has bulked up a lot since moving to tighthead lock

There's no way that Sarries drop McFarland - he's the best 6 in the Prem right now. Isiekwe and Tizard are going to have to fight it out for 5.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

There's no way that Sarries drop McFarland - he's the best 6 in the Prem right now. Isiekwe and Tizard are going to have to fight it out for 5.

Yeah that's a good point


No thanks to Ackermann, don't see him as a better option than others we have and it's spitting in the face of the players whose spot he would take

 

[HamJan]

Who would Borthwick drop for Marchant anyway

Furbank?

 

[BPM]

Porter or Joseph would be the obvious candidates.

I'm sure Borthwick is a fan of Porter having signed him and coached him, but I'd also hope he's smart enough to recognise Marchant is a far superior player.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

No thanks to Ackermann, don't see him as a better option than others we have and it's spitting in the face of the players whose spot he would take

If he was our best option, I'd have no problem with him playing now - he's been with Glaws since 2017 and his move over here didn't seem to be motivated by international thinking.

He could probably do a decent job. But while I like the 8 to be a reasonable size I also prefer them to be more of a ball player. Dombrandt for me at the moment although Mercer's return will stir things up and T Willis must surely get a look in at some point too.

 

[Geordie]

Marchant is a class act would be my starting 13 but he's elected to move on. So for the moment you have to look at other options.

Say what you like but Slade will be in the mix due to his playmaking and defensive skills. Lawrence will be there as the form 13 and more direct carrying/ running option. Finally there's Will Joseph who's a talent like his older brother..see how he develops...

12 will be key. And with Smith and Ford likely unavailable...it should mean Farrell to 10 and Dan Kelly can get the chance...finally an actual talented 12 with physicality aswell.

 

[Geordie]

If he was our best option, I'd have no problem with him playing now - he's been with Glaws since 2017 and his move over here didn't seem to be motivated by international thinking.

He could probably do a decent job. But while I like the 8 to be a reasonable size I also prefer them to be more of a ball player. Dombrandt for me at the moment although Mercer's return will stir things up and T Willis must surely get a look in at some point too.

I think it needs to be Dombrandt for rhe moment. Hes seen as the ball playing 8 but i don't think he gets enough credit for the hard work he does. He's excellent at the breakdown...gets alot of turnovers etc.

 

[Crash Hamster]

It's time for my periodic reminder that Lawrence is much more than a power runner. He has pace and a step, too. I'd pick him in a heartbeat.

Disclaimer: I am not Ollie Lawrence.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It's time for my periodic reminder that Lawrence is much more than a power runner. He has pace and a step, too. I'd pick him in a heartbeat.

Disclaimer: I am not Ollie Lawrence.

I'd argue that he's not thattttttt much of a power runner at all
Obviously he's strong and fast, but people want him to be the reincarnation of Young-Manu and he's a completely different kind of player

 

[TW27BA]

All these flankers mentioned, but is Sam Underhill out of the frame now?
I know he has had his problems with concussions, but I like the guy and what he brings to the side.
Any more concussions however and I think he'd be wise to give serious thought to calling it a day.
(Take note George North)

 

[Scotty]

I wonder if Joel Kpoku might head back to England...although he seems to be loving it in france.

How old is he now? He seems to have done v well from what ive seen of him out there(although is limited) he would do well yo come back now as he could surely challenge for the 'TH' lock role. I remember him looking good at a young age at Sarries.

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

Marchant is a class act would be my starting 13 but he's elected to move on. So for the moment you have to look at other options.

Say what you like but Slade will be in the mix due to his playmaking and defensive skills. Lawrence will be there as the form 13 and more direct carrying/ running option. Finally there's Will Joseph who's a talent like his older brother..see how he develops...

12 will be key. And with Smith and Ford likely unavailable...it should mean Farrell to 10 and Dan Kelly can get the chance...finally an actual talented 12 with physicality aswell.

England have not had a decent inside centre since Will Greenwood. Why do we not produce good players in that position?

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

England have not had a decent inside centre since Will Greenwood. Why do we not produce good players in that position?

Not true.

Maybe not world class, but to say we haven't had a good one just isn't true. Brad Barritt, prime Ford-Faz, Catt, Flood have all been "good" or "decent".

Maybe not world class

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Not true.

Maybe not world class, but to say we haven't had a good one just isn't true. Brad Barritt, prime Ford-Faz, Catt, Flood have all been "good" or "decent".

Maybe not world class

I know he's not in favour at the moment but I'd say that 2019 Tuilagi was world class at 12 when partnered with Slade.

Te'o also looked fantastic on the Lions tour but he never showed that form for England, nor can we claim to have developed him. I do think he could have been world class if he'd stayed injury free though.

We've had some very good 12s; they can just never stay fit.