England 2022/23

[Ragey Erasmus]

We've been saying this years and with the odd exception our back row has seldom dominated. The talent's there, but.

I dunno, I think when we had Underhill, Curry and Billy V all firing, it was as good as any other in the world. Admittedly we haven't had a prolonged period of dominance but it's definitely been there.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I dunno, I think when we had Underhill, Curry and Billy V all firing, it was as good as any other in the world. Admittedly we haven't had a prolonged period of dominance but it's definitely been there.

We're kind of agreeing. Excellence of teams / units is measured over time not occasions.

I got a little bit flamed for saying that I thought Underhill is critical to the side but I really do. Hopefully we'll see a fully firing Underhill at some point again.

We have a lot of options, but that creates its own problems. The way some other sides are going, we may eventually be looking at something like Mercer and any 2 of Curry, Willis and Underhill.

 

[Geordie]

With regards to that...can someone please tell me why you would pick Itoje at 6...when you have a player of Jack WIllis calibre just sat there !!?? I honestly just dont get the logic...and i dont care how good or experienced Eddie Jones is. Thats just a BAD decision.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

With regards to that...can someone please tell me why you would pick Itoje at 6...when you have a player of Jack WIllis calibre just sat there !!?? I honestly just dont get the logic...and i dont care how good or experienced Eddie Jones is. Thats just a BAD decision.

See this post for why:

Eddie Joints

View attachment 15389

 

[ncurd]

With regards to that...can someone please tell me why you would pick Itoje at 6...when you have a player of Jack WIllis calibre just sat there !!?? I honestly just dont get the logic...and i dont care how good or experienced Eddie Jones is. Thats just a BAD decision.

EJ seams to have an obsession with playing locks at 6. I wish we'd stop trying to revolutionise the wheel. If you've got options fine for a while we really struggled for a genuine 7 at that required us to do some thinking but now....

Its not like 4 years ago when we had more international calibre locks than we knew what to do with.

 

[Which Tyler]

The way some other sides are going, we may eventually be looking at something like Mercer and any 2 of Curry, Willis and Underhill.

You mean.... a number 8 and 2 flankers?
Nah, that's just silly talk!

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Using a Lock 6 is all the rage. PSTD/Mostert for Boks, Lawes (was lambasted when EJ first used him there but automatic choice there when fit), Scott Barrett for ABs and now Maro. Gives another line out option with their longer leavers. Not that Jack Willis has short stumpy arms at 6" 3.

Either that he just doesn't fancy the dual open side flankers option like he did with Curry-Hill combo. Although I think Underhill really being a tackle machine ala Lydiate, who could win the odd turnover rather than specialist like Willis.

 

[Which Tyler]

Using a Lock 6 is all the rage.

It is.
It's also (IMO) fighting the last war.

It's all the rage because SA won the RWC that way 3 years ago.
The next RWC is unlikely to be won with the same tactics.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Plus when's the last time PSDT played lock for any significant amount of time?
When Lawes first started playing 6 properly he didn't look great but eventually he became really good there because it takes time to adjust to and thrive in new positions

Itoje playing lock at his club then being thrown in at 6 for England isn't the same as Lawes playing 6 almost exclusively for the last few years

Coles playing 6 for his club then 4 for England Itoje playing 4 for his club and 6 for England last week was just another weird entry into EJs playbook

 

[Geordie]

The thing about Willis though is i dont see him as a total out and out fetcher. Hes also a big heavy duty carrier, try scorer, decent lineout option (at prem level so far). He actually looks like a 6 to me...6'3 big strong...just a class alround flanker.

 

[HamJan]

Eddie's been banging on for a while now about how teams are regularly reduced to 14 or 13 players through yellow or red cards, and that teams have to be able to adapt. Perhaps his thinking is that , in the event of England losing a 6 to a yellow card in the future, give Itoje game time at 6 during the AIs. Tin hat firmly on.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Eddie's been banging on for a while now about how teams are regularly reduced to 14 or 13 players through yellow or red cards, and that teams have to be able to adapt. Perhaps his thinking is that , in the event of England losing a 6 to a yellow card in the future, give Itoje game time at 6 during the AIs. Tin hat firmly on.

Uhhh if a 6 got a yellow card you wouldn't move a lock there. Then… there would only be one person in the second row.

The only way this would work is you could argue that if a lock got a yellow card it makes it easy to slot Itoje straight in there from 6.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

It is.
It's also (IMO) fighting the last war.

It's all the rage because SA won the RWC that way 3 years ago.
The next RWC is unlikely to be won with the same tactics.

What you mean teams won't kick to the corner next year in France and try and maul it over for tries? And then don't want an added option of 6 as a lineout option?

The big factor is Binny has never really been a lineout option for England. Hence why a decent line-out option at 6 is required.

v SA in 2019 where come lineout time George only had Lawes and Maro to throw to who were well marked out by the twin towers Etzebeth/ Lood and then had PSTD and Vermeulen. Same v Lions 2021.

I think my view will forever be clouded by watching the RWC 2015 final when I saw at first hand how having different line out options gives an edge, hence why I always like as many options as possible. That one Wallabies had only 3 because they favoured the Pooper v AB's 4 and AB's killed them come line out time.

 

[HamJan]

Uhhh if a 6 got a yellow card you wouldn't move a lock there. Then… there would only be one person in the second row.

The only way this would work is you could argue that if a lock got a yellow card it makes it easy to slot Itoje straight in there from 6.

If you've used your bench except the lock and then a 6 gets injured / carded, at least Itoje's had back row experience at international level. Tbh, there are better sixes than Itoje, but I was trying to understand Eddie's thinking.

 

[Becca]

If you've used your bench except the lock and then a 6 gets injured / carded, at least Itoje's had back row experience at international level. Tbh, there are better sixes than Itoje, but I was trying to understand Eddie's thinking.

Trying to understand Eddie's thinking ?! Don't go there. It's a slippery slope.

 

[Crash Hamster]

Eddie's been banging on for a while now about how teams are regularly reduced to 14 or 13 players through yellow or red cards, and that teams have to be able to adapt. Perhaps his thinking is that , in the event of England losing a 6 to a yellow card in the future, give Itoje game time at 6 during the AIs. Tin hat firmly on.

I think that probably explains Jack Nowell rather than Maro...

 

[Which Tyler]

I was trying to understand Eddie's thinking.

 

[Crash Hamster]

What you mean teams won't kick to the corner next year in France and try and maul it over for tries? And then don't want an added option of 6 as a lineout option?

The big factor is Binny has never really been a lineout option for England. Hence why a decent line-out option at 6 is required.

v SA in 2019 where come lineout time George only had Lawes and Maro to throw to who were well marked out by the twin towers Etzebeth/ Lood and then had PSTD and Vermeulen. Same v Lions 2021.

I think my view will forever be clouded by watching the RWC 2015 final when I saw at first hand how having different line out options gives an edge, hence why I always like as many options as possible. That one Wallabies had only 3 because they favoured the Pooper v AB's 4 and AB's killed them come line out time.

Teams rarely compete at a 5m lineout anyway. If you're defending, you want a beefy lad to push. If you're attacking, you could throw the fly half up in the air and no-one would challenge him.

I think the obsession with the third lineout option is slightly odd. Surely it's easier to make a good flanker into a decent lineout option (lineouts are relatively static events after a good breather, as opposed to having to be involved in multiple phases of play) than a good lineout operative into a decent flanker (much more value in the tackling, jackaling, clearing out, linking, supporting, passing than jumping high).

It would make more sense to me to see [a flanker] being given international lineout experience than a lock having to learn flanker.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Teams rarely compete at a 5m lineout anyway. If you're defending, you want a beefy lad to push. If you're attacking, you could throw the fly half up in the air and no-one would challenge him.

I think the obsession with the third lineout option is slightly odd. Surely it's easier to make a good flanker into a decent lineout option (lineouts are relatively static events after a good breather, as opposed to having to be involved in multiple phases of play) than a good lineout operative into a decent flanker (much more value in the tackling, jackaling, clearing out, linking, supporting, passing than jumping high).

It would make more sense to me to see [a flanker] being given international lineout experience than a lock having to learn flanker.

I would just clarify Not just 5m options but also gives throw to the back option to give front foot ball if a lineout was in the centre of the field. Otherwise limiting to front or middle and easy to read and steal. Hence why at least a third line out option is preferable, if not 4 or 5 with at least one at the back.

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

Why cant we produce a specialist backrower that can do his other backrow work but is also good at the lineout? Why do we have to play players in positions they are not used to playing? Its not like England are short of players to choose from. They shouldn't be cobbling a team together like this.