England 2022/23

[Scotty]

Also just seen Munster vs South Africa A is a thing? Why the hell do we not have more/any A games?! We have the biggest player pool in the world and the only exposure most young players get is 5 min off the bench if they are lucky or a 1 off start when not ready....

 

[Wasps92]

Reckon if we lose the next three Jones is gone?

I'm so sick of him. I genuinely can't believe he's going to have been coach for 8 years because apart from his first year in charge and a decent WC every other year has been at best average and at worst utterly shambolic.

 

[Which Tyler]

It's frankly amazing how terrible he is - given that he's simultaneously the winningest* coach in English rugby history



*Currently SCW won 1 match more, but was HC for 5 more matches.

 

[ncurd]

It's frankly amazing how terrible he is - given that he's also the winningest coach in English rugby history

You like stats as well as me if we did two era how does EJ stack up first world cup cycle to second?

 

[Which Tyler]

You like stats as well as me if we did two era how does EJ stack up first world cup cycle to second?

It's going to be heavily covid disrupted, which would make it awkward to draw valid comparisons, but the stat.s are there to be looked into.

Russ Petty did a thing ahead of the weekend, comparing the 6N teams in matches vs the Quad Nations teams by the world cup cycle here:



Bare in mind though, I'm really not wanting to go around defending Eddie (I want him replaced after all), so I'm not exactly motivated to go doing the legwork to show whether what looks like OTT hyperbole is actually OTT and hyperbolic.
Same goes for the OTT hyperbolic criticisms of various players (eg Cokanasiga recently, who seems to be the slowest winger in history and borderline dyspaxic depending on who/where you read opinions)

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

England's per game PD went from 13.5 to 9.5 between cycles. Obviously doesn't control for strength of opponent but there is 28 games in this cycle 50 games in the previous. Unless there is a drastic difference in quality of opponent I think you could say it was representative.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

It's frankly amazing how terrible he is - given that he's simultaneously the winningest* coach in English rugby history



*Currently SCW won 1 match more, but was HC for 5 more matches.

It's the direction of travel though. SCW started moderately and built. Jones vice versa.

Let's look at the 6N build up to the 03 and 23 RWCs - SCW's finest hour and what Jones has been telling us for years is his sole focus.

Under SCW

00 - 1st P5 W4
01 - 1st P5 W4
02 - 2nd P5 W4
03 - GS P5 W5

Under EJ

19 - 2nd P5 W3
20 - 1st on PD P5 W4
21 - 5th P5 W2
22 - 3rd P5 W2
23 - ? But hard to see more than 3.

Spot any patterns?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Year Win Loss draw Winratio games
16 13 0 0 100%
17 9 1 0 90%
18 6 6 0 50%
19 11 3 0 73%
20 8 1 0 88%
21 7 3 0 70%
22 4 4 0 50%

So splitting that to post and pre World Cup gets us
OG Eddie
Wins 39
Losses 10
Draw 1
Win ratio 78%

New wave Eddie
Wins 19
Losses 8
Draw 0
Win ratio 70%

Worth noting though that when we lose to SA and NZ he will have a New Wave win ratio of 66%.

Also worth noting that all our coaches since Woodard have been dog crap so saying he's the best or second best English coach doesn't mean much when you had a borderline simpleton in Johnson or a wet lettuce like Lancaster. Probably says more about the RFU than anything.

The thing I haven't factored in is who we were playing as that's plays a significant element in some of those wins.

 

[Scotty]

It's the direction of travel though. SCW started moderately and built. Jones vice versa.

Let's look at the 6N build up to the 03 and 23 RWCs - SCW's finest hour and what Jones has been telling us for years is his sole focus.

Under SCW

00 - 1st P5 W4
01 - 1st P5 W4
02 - 2nd P5 W4
03 - GS P5 W5

Under EJ

19 - 2nd P5 W3
20 - 1st on PD P5 W4
21 - 5th P5 W2
22 - 3rd P5 W2
23 - ? But hard to see more than 3.

Spot any patterns?

When i look at the squad available and the quality of the prem, i can see more than 3rd the next 6n just hard to beat great teams in form like France and Ireland....but we can do it....now for the issues... selection, over coaching and lack of a decent attack coach because whilst i blame EJ for alot i dont think he is actually the attack coach, and we just look blunt.

 

[BPM]

He isn't the attack coach, but he is responsible for hiring and overseeing them. Wisemantel was good and on the evidence so far, Gleeson is a big step down.

I would have liked to have seen us find a role for Lee Blackett. As I see it, he was responsible for most of Wasps' best attacking play.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I would have liked to have seen us find a role for Lee Blackett. As I see it, he was responsible for most of Wasps' best attacking play.

Yeah, missed opportunity to bring him in - he's gone to Scarlets now, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him have a role with the Wales side if they have a clearout post RWC

 

[Scotty]

He isn't the attack coach, but he is responsible for hiring and overseeing them. Wisemantel was good and on the evidence so far, Gleeson is a big step down.

I would have liked to have seen us find a role for Lee Blackett. As I see it, he was responsible for most of Wasps' best attacking play.

100% agree but Gleeson does deserve to go, whilst i get annoyed by EJ's selection our attack has been terrible for a while.

This is not saying EJ deserves to stay for a second but there are multiple issues in coaching.

Ej is in charge of who plays(which he fucks up) but the attack is painful to watch at times.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

100% agree but Gleeson does deserve to go, whilst i get annoyed by EJ's selection our attack has been terrible for a while.

This is not saying EJ deserves to stay for a second but there are multiple issues in coaching.

Ej is in charge of who plays(which he fucks up) but the attack is painful to watch at times.

The attack coach can't be absolved of selection guilt either, especially for the backs.

If he can't turn around to tell Eddie to flip off and select someone who can run quick (simplifying slightly) for his attacking strategy, then there's no point him being there.

 

[Geordie]

I see Seibolt is leaving after the AI's and Brett Hodgson is taking over the defence role...another rugby league man.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

another rugby league man

Tryna be us so hard rn

tbf League does produce excellent defence coaches, which is odd considering the majority of League is just running 10m dead on into a tackler

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I see Seibolt is leaving after the AI's and Brett Hodgson is taking over the defence role...another rugby league man.

Farcical.

As far as I can see his only Union experience is as a kicking consultant for Sale Sharks.

I hope we get stuffed in all our remaining AIs so there has to be regime change.

Enough.

 

[Crash Hamster]

This continual appointment of coaches with little or no RU experience at all makes a mockery of the "Premiership coaches don't have the experience to step up to international level" argument.'

It seems less of a risk to appoint someone who has played at the top level and coached successfully at domestic level to be head coach than to pick someone who can't possibly have obtained mastery of rugby union because they know rugby league.

It's like picking a breaststroker to coach an Olympic athlete in freestyle. Some of the principles may be the same, some may be so insanely gifted as a coach that they can get away with it, but it has to be a gamble if they have no pedigree.

Another thing to poil my biss.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Mad stat

 

[Scotty]

I see Seibolt is leaving after the AI's and Brett Hodgson is taking over the defence role...another rugby league man.

Who is Brett Hodgson? Alot of league experience? Not that i want thay over union experience but still

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

.

This continual appointment of coaches with little or no RU experience at all makes a mockery of the "Premiership coaches don't have the experience to step up to international level" argument.'

It seems less of a risk to appoint someone who has played at the top level and coached successfully at domestic level to be head coach than to pick someone who can't possibly have obtained mastery of rugby union because they know rugby league.

It's like picking a breaststroker to coach an Olympic athlete in freestyle. Some of the principles may be the same, some may be so insanely gifted as a coach that they can get away with it, but it has to be a gamble if they have no pedigree.

Another thing to poil my biss.

Yep. If I'm flying Airbus I don't want a Boeing trained pilot flying me on the basis of it's all planes innit. Mastery is a good word, CH.

Question is whether this is a genuine Jones initiative that he thinks gives an edge or whether none of the top union coaches actually want to work with him.