Cheetahs and Kings to join "Pro 14"

[TRF_heineken]

I'm really curious as to what will happen. The other issue is if South African players play in this league, and not necessarily for the Kings and Cheetahs, would they be considered for the Springboks?

It will definitely have an effect with so many guys being lured to the Irish provinces all of a sudden.

My point about the Currie Cup and it being SA's premier domestic competition, is that I can't see that SARU would let the Kings and Cheetahs pursue this NH tournament, and at the same time water down the Currie Cup. SARU will have some sort of say on what will be allowed or not. I'm pretty sure the other teams would voice their opinion if the CC becomes a watered down affair (and by that I mean worse than what it is now).

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

If all SA teams migrate to the NH then the Currie Cup can easily be moved though or played in patches.

The main benefit other than access to a larger market/income (assuming a fair enough share) is our potential access to our NH based players for the test side seeing as we can then compare apples with apples.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Kings update;

Out;
Chris Cloete -> Munster (Ireland)
Lionel Cronje -> Toyota Verblitz (Japan) (f#@& you, Jake White!)

Cronje has said though that he wants to be back playing for the Kings; http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SuperRugby/cronje-i-want-to-be-loyal-to-kings-20170710

Kings and Cheetahs (and the Pro12 organizers) need to move fast though to get certainty or risk facing more players leaving. As is the Kings are without their best forward and back. Apart from these two I rate Mapimpi, Schreuder and Jaer their best players. Cloete and especially Cronje have been KEY though. Pity. I'd even go as far as calling Cronje the pick of the SA backs in this year's SR. That c*#t Jake White at it again poaching SA's better fringe players to a tournament where those players are unavailable to us. This time Japan.

 

[unrated]

yea my thoughts are the same. Because these two teams are joining this league does it still mean that the SA players such as Marcel Coetzee who has less than the required caps to qualify for the Springboks will now be considered "local" players. This guy will walk into the SA starting lineup if available.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Kings update;

Out;
Chris Cloete -> Munster (Ireland)
Lionel Cronje -> Toyota Verblitz (Japan) (f#@& you, Jake White!)

Cronje has said though that he wants to be back playing for the Kings; http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SuperRugby/cronje-i-want-to-be-loyal-to-kings-20170710

Kings and Cheetahs (and the Pro12 organizers) need to move fast though to get certainty or risk facing more players leaving. As is the Kings are without their best forward and back. Apart from these two I rate Mapimpi, Schreuder and Jaer their best players. Cloete and especially Cronje have been KEY though. Pity. I'd even go as far as calling Cronje the pick of the SA backs in this year's SR. That c*#t Jake White at it again poaching SA's better fringe players to a tournament where those players are unavailable to us. This time Japan.

You can't blame the players for looking for financial security but this is pretty dire for the Kings prospects in the Pro12 and seems to undermine the assurance that the Pro12 were seeking from the SARU (again, not anyone's fault). I'm less certain this is going to happen now.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

If all SA teams migrate to the NH then the Currie Cup can easily be moved though or played in patches.

If all SA teams moved to the NH season, what would be the chances of the Super Rugby franchises disbanding in favour of a Currie Cup conference as part of a larger European league (be it the Pro12, Top 14 or Premiership)? It'd cut down on travel costs and also strengthen the Currie Cup. Are the Super Rugby franchises too strong or too well supported?

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

If all SA teams moved to the NH season, what would be the chances of the Super Rugby franchises disbanding in favour of a Currie Cup conference as part of a larger European league (be it the Pro12, Top 14 or Premiership)? It'd cut down on travel costs and also strengthen the Currie Cup. Are the Super Rugby franchises too strong or too well supported?

Personally I would love that. My feeling is that the SR franchises are sooo close to the Provincials Unions anyway as to make no difference. IE you'd be hard pressed to find a Natal supporter not being a Sharks supporter or a WP supporter not supporting the Stormers. If anything I think the majority of SA fans support Province first or at least would if the two operated at close to the same level. Taking the Bokke out of the Currie Cup has hurt it very much. Just that for many of them (with the Kings less so) their provinces aren't truly represented in SR. Pumas and Griquas aren't actually all that poor teams (talent wise if not money wise).

No, if anything is to cut that option off at the knees (Currie Cup feeding into the ECC) its the money. I have no idea what sort of money would be needed and can be generated internally but would imagine it would have to be heavily topped up by teams competing in Europe.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

isn't there more money to be found with south africa playing in europe than in super rugby... i'm not sure what the finances are but i feel that ECC is a much more lucrative competition than Super Rugby

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

isn't there more money to be found with south africa playing in europe than in super rugby... i'm not sure what the finances are but i feel that ECC is a much more lucrative competition than Super Rugby

100% I reckon the SARU are looking at this as an experiment to see if its plausible and the PRL and LNR are licking their lips!

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I have no idea what type of money would be involved and what share SA teams might get. Thinking on it I doubt Argentina and Aus have huge 'rugby markets' ad Japan seems not to be taking SR seriously. The NZ market is probably saturated and limited.

On the Currie Cup I suppose we would be able to get a respectable14 matches easily with home and away and 8 teams in the premier division. If ECC were an add on (but would we be welcome?) that should probably come out ahead of the existing CC and SR earnings. Again though, would we be a welcome addition to ECC? I highly doubt that.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

I have no idea what type of money would be involved and what share SA teams might get. Thinking on it I doubt Argentina and Aus have huge 'rugby markets' ad Japan seems not to be taking SR seriously. The NZ market is probably saturated and limited.

On the Currie Cup I suppose we would be able to get a respectable14 matches easily with home and away and 8 teams in the premier division. If ECC were an add on (but would we be welcome?) that should probably come out ahead of the existing CC and SR earnings. Again though, would we be a welcome addition to ECC? I highly doubt that.

why wouldn't you be?

would increase the amount of games therefore increasing the amount of games they can sell to broadcasters

south african expats live in enough places to have an even higher demand for ECC games in their new countries

politically, it would do damage to new zealand and australia since they would have little bargaining power over the club game and super rugby would have nowhere near the appeal it has now

another plus on your side is that CC now serves as a qualifier for ECC so it would become more popular to outsiders

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Again though, would we be a welcome addition to ECC?

If the size of the pot is increased for everyone, absolutely yes.

 

[munstermuffin]

The ECC would love ye to join. It'd really help them boost the tournament and give them a chance to shake it up a bit. It'd also improve Challenge Cup as it'd mean at least 1 or 2 teams will drop down to improve that

 

[Brigantine]

I have no information but I'd be surprised and disappointed if the SA sides were granted access to European competitions before they committed to all six of their sides playing in Europe long term.

If they were admitted the likely losers would be other Pro12 clubs and the ones from the Continental Shield (currently 2x Russian clubs). It'd be a step away from having broad representation from many European nations. Like football has become with many places for clubs from countries with big TV deals and zero or one places for clubs from countries with small TV deals.

I'm not so sure about that. With the Continental Shield being expanded into a full 3rd tier EPCR tournament (as opposed to just a qualification process), there is plenty of scope to shunt maybe 3 or 4 non-performing AP/Top14 teams there, and thus make space to promote worthy former-EPCRQ teams into the Challenge and Champions Cups.

 

[TRF_heineken]

isn't there more money to be found with south africa playing in europe than in super rugby... i'm not sure what the finances are but i feel that ECC is a much more lucrative competition than Super Rugby

That is a good question. But I think it's more complicated than that.

At the moment, South Africa's Supersport and Sky Sports in Britain have a deal in that Supersport supplies Sky Sports with the coverage of the Super Rugby and the Rugby Championship. If we move to the North (which won't happen very soon) completely, we would lose a big chunk of the coverage and the income it generated.

At the moment Supersport alone is bringing in 66% of the television revenue for Super Rugby and that is because Supersport covers such a vast area.

 

[munstermuffin]

That is a good question. But I think it's more complicated than that.

At the moment, South Africa's Supersport and Sky Sports in Britain have a deal in that Supersport supplies Sky Sports with the coverage of the Super Rugby and the Rugby Championship. If we move to the North (which won't happen very soon) completely, we would lose a big chunk of the coverage and the income it generated.

At the moment Supersport alone is bringing in 66% of the television revenue for Super Rugby and that is because Supersport covers such a vast area.

Wouldn't ye gain as Super Rugby ill still be in South Africa and also Sky will be there more often with Pro 12 too. It will be also more attractive as time zones will suit better and that should open up to larger audiences for away games.
Also for South African economy the market has got a bit broader now and if they got 1% of European market they will get big business.

In Ireland Bank Of Ireland sponsor the provinces. For 1 European game they allow a local sponsor on the jersey instead of them in a "sponsor for a day" campaign.
A study shows these businesses get exposed to UK market and nearly all have had a huge rise in business because of it.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Wouldn't ye gain as Super Rugby ill still be in South Africa and also Sky will be there more often with Pro 12 too. It will be also more attractive as time zones will suit better and that should open up to larger audiences for away games.
Also for South African economy the market has got a bit broader now and if they got 1% of European market they will get big business.

In Ireland Bank Of Ireland sponsor the provinces. For 1 European game they allow a local sponsor on the jersey instead of them in a "sponsor for a day" campaign.
A study shows these businesses get exposed to UK market and nearly all have had a huge rise in business because of it.

That is the question we don't have an answer for, and we don't yet know how the deal will look like between Sky Sports and Supersport. But as things stand now, Supersport is showing NH rugby, we get to see some of the Top14 and the European Championships as well as the English Premiership. How the funds are being shared between Sky and Supersport is something I don't know.

The issue is that we are going to lose in Super Rugby by way that there won't be as many games as there were this year, because there will be fewer teams. But we will gain in showing more matches from another league that we haven't done before. The question is how will it balance each other out.

I think that due to the Currency situation, we will benefit from this, as the Rand is weaker to the Pound and the Euro than what it is towards the Australian and NZ $.

 

[Amiga500]

Anyone have any idea when we'd hear official word?

- When was/is the the fixture list due to be published?
- With all the ancillaries around a fixture, they can't exactly leave it till a week before the season starts!

 

[TRF_heineken]

Anyone have any idea when we'd hear official word?

- When was/is the the fixture list due to be published?
- With all the ancillaries around a fixture, they can't exactly leave it till a week before the season starts!

I have an idea that we might start hearing something by next week at the earliest, when the Cheetahs and Kings are done with Super Rugby and can focus on the future. They play their final game this weekend (ironically against each other), so perhaps there is something planned after the match where the 2 Franchises are together...

 

[munstermuffin]

There is a meeting scheduled Friday so presume it will be clearer after that. Fixtures should be out in the next few days regardless