Beattie backs extended 'Six Nations'

[Croket66]

Taken from planet rugby :

Former Scotland number eight John Beattie has called for an extension of the premier European international competition.
With less than a week of World Cup rugby complete, the performances of some of the game's smaller nations have caused many to rethink their position in world rugby.
Having seen Scotland struggle to stave off Romania, Beattie suggests that the time has come to create a two-tier European competition or an extended 'Six Nations'.
"We Scots continue to take part in the Six Nations as of right. Our professional teams take part in a Celtic League and we make money from a television deal because of our continued participation in the top tournament in the northern hemisphere," he wrote in his BBC Scotland blog.
"Then - bang - the World Cup arrived. The gap is closing between the rich and the pretenders; nobody can deny that Romania gave us a fright at the weekend - they were winning with ten minutes remaining."
"If I am being honest, I was one of the people who argued long and hard against Italy being brought into the then Five Nations, and that was despite (them] having beaten France and Scotland in "friendlies" at the time. But the addition of Italy has been a master stroke," he added.
"On the one hand rugby has spread, and on the other Italy has been a credible force and a great location for rugby. Already this first round of matches has meant that Europe can no longer rightfully exclude the likes of Romania - and the USA caused Ireland some problems too."
However, while Beattie may have changed his tune, he admits it's unlikely that the Scottish Rugby Union will take the same view.
"My gut feeling is that Scotland would be against any expansion of a European spring competition, as we probably have most to lose. We would fear play-off games with Romania, Georgia and, maybe one day, Russia, Portugal, and Spain. But I can't see us ignoring them for long," said the 53-year-old.

What do you think about that?


During 6 Nations 2011, Italy was beaten by England 59-13 and by Scotland 21-8. Few months later, during RWC, Georgia was beaten by England 41-10 and by Scotland 15-6
Last year Italy U18 was beaten by Georgia U18.

Today, a group of georgians plays at the higher level :
Davit Zirakashvili (tighthead prop) and Vito Kolelishvili (flanker) at Clermont
Davit Kubriashvili (tighthead prop) and Konstantin Mikautadze (lock) at Toulon
Vasi Kakovin (loosehead prop) and Jaba Bregvadze (hooker) at Toulouse
Dimitri Basilaia (number 8) at Edinburgh
Mamuka Gorgodze (flanker), Mikheil Nariashvili (loosehead prop) and Giorgi Jgenti (tighthead prop) at Montpellier
Anton Peikrishvili (tighthead prop) at Castres
Zurab Zhvania (loosehead prop) at Stade Français.

Also, there are a lot of georgians players in ProD2.

And, if Georgia U18 is better than Italy U18, 1992-1993 generation is very promising :
Tamaz Mchedlidze (1993,centre) plays for Stade Montois U23 and started 4 Amlin Cup games (maybe a 5th this week)
Merab Sharikadze (1993,centre) plays for Hartpury College in UK Universities championship and count 8 caps for Georgia
Lasha Lomidze (1992,lock/flanker) and Gagi Bazadze (1992,tighthead prop) are playing for Montpellier U23
Vakhtang Akhobadze (1993,tighthead prop) and Giorgi Tetrashvili (1993,loosehead prop) are playing for Albi U23 with some ProD2 apparences
Val Rapava (1992, tighthead prop) played for Western Province U19 and Saracens in A-League this season
Zaza Navrozashvili (1992, loosehead prop) just signed for Bordeaux
Giorgi Sharashidze (1993, tighthead prop) plays for Clermont academy

What's the best solution? a promotion/relegation system? a knock out game? actual system?

 

[BZHopenside]

Promotion/relegation, with a play off between the top team of the European Nations and the bottom team of the Six Nations.

 

[Toko_11]

At this point... Were we have to beg for 10 years to get 1 good fixture.. I'd say anything is better than current system.... that goes nowhere.

Seriously tho Knock out fixture would be the best option.. if its a promotion you know people will talk crap..for example if italy gets relegatet, we go up and do poorly people will say we aren't good enough and its too early etc etc... however if we beat Italy in the knockout its whole another story...

of course i prefer straight promotion tho..in that case we are 100% in 6 nations at least every other year....

Now imagine this .. what would happen if by some miracle 2 ENC teams made their way to 6N.. eg italy got relegated and failed to win ENC(i know its impossible but bare with me) and 1st team to get promoted didn't get relegated ? that could destroy the competition not that i would be sad.. destroying that competition would mean giving way to a better one...

 

[nickdnz]

I'd personally agree with the knock out playoff match (although I would like to see it extend to become the 7 Nations - for the sake of dedundancy European Nations Division 1 may be better). So Italy and Scotland should be safe for a period of time - but others get continued exposure.

The issue with this is that if Scotland/Italy were knocked out of the 6 Nations, then support for rugby in these places may decline. That is the most obvious argument for it. However the problem with this is that it caps off the potential for other countries to ever really develop. Georgia certainly should be there in my mind. They have the players, professional league, stadium, support and have proven competitive over a long period of time. The ultimate goal is to get as many countries wanting to participate as possible - Georgia have all the potential to become a good team, but they'll never get there without continual international competition at the level of the 6 Nations.

 

[dragos03]

The ENC teams (or at least one of them) would have to consistently beat the weakest 6N members (Scotland/Italy) for at least a few years before something like this will be implemented. It's all about the money here, so the issue can only be forced by a string of results.

Romania almost beat Scotland at the last RWC and Georgia managed to lose by a close margin. But both lost in the end. Just imagine if Scotland actually lost one of these matches (or both): they would have lost automatic RWC qualification and the issue of 6N relegation would have been much more important. Now, the ENC nations have to wait for another shot at the Scots/Italians, and that won't probably happen until the next RWC.

 

[Toko_11]

The ENC teams (or at least one of them) would have to consistently beat the weakest 6N members (Scotland/Italy) for at least a few years before something like this will be implemented. It's all about the money here, so the issue can only be forced by a string of results.

Romania almost beat Scotland at the last RWC and Georgia managed to lose by a close margin. But both lost in the end. Just imagine if Scotland actually lost one of these matches (or both): they would have lost automatic RWC qualification and the issue of 6N relegation would have been much more important. Now, the ENC nations have to wait for another shot at the Scots/Italians, and that won't probably happen until the next RWC.

So we have to hope that our teams perform better during the next world cup... Its most likely that Romania will meet Italy on the next WC... Guess who I will be rooting for ? .... Also Europe 1 doesn't face European opposition which is a bummer so we'll have to count on EU 2 this time around...

 

[Nielsch]

For now, I believe it's best to develop and professionalize the European Nations Cup through tv deals, better stadiums, marketing, merchandise and exposure and to give the top 2 nations a reward in non-RWC years; a home match against the numbers 5 and 6 of the RBS Six Nations. Otherwise we'll probably see Georgia and Italy / Scotland swapping competitions every year. Not a big fan of that. I won't create stability.

 

[dragos03]

I also think that the ENC 1A nations should lead by example and play more games against Tier 3 opposition themselves. It wouldn't hurt Romania or Georgia to play once per year a game vs the likes of Poland or Germany. They could test new players in these encounters, without the need of the star players, and show Tier 1 nations that we also care about developing rugby.

 

[psychic duck]

I also think that the ENC 1A nations should lead by example and play more games against Tier 3 opposition themselves. It wouldn't hurt Romania or Georgia to play once per year a game vs the likes of Poland or Germany. They could test new players in these encounters, without the need of the star players, and show Tier 1 nations that we also care about developing rugby.

The top of ENC 1A already plays Tier 3 nations annually.

There has been a fixture against Ukraine, Czech Republic, Germany etc annually. The gap between Ukraine and Georgia or Romania was a very large one from their results (larger than the difference between any of Tier 1 vs European nations at the RWC). So that box is ticked.

The fact that ENC has relegation in the first place is an opportunity for other nations to earn the chance to play them as well.

Also Georgia have moved matches to Turkey in the past, to try and develop rugby there and mobilise a potential market of fans there. They may do that again as well in the future from what I've heard.

That said, Nielsch makes a point about there just being one team swapping around every year is valid. In the ENC, it has come to a point where it has become that 5 teams are fairly safe of their place and the bottom place is just revolving each two years.

 

[Nielsch]

I also think that the ENC 1A nations should lead by example and play more games against Tier 3 opposition themselves. It wouldn't hurt Romania or Georgia to play once per year a game vs the likes of Poland or Germany. They could test new players in these encounters, without the need of the star players, and show Tier 1 nations that we also care about developing rugby.

At least countries in the lower ENC divisions can make it to the top division 1A and have at least two years of opposition against somewhat stronger nations. I think these countries will benefit more from this in terms of development than playing one-off fixtures against the likes of Georgia and Spain.

 

[London_Italian]

The issue of 6 nations expansion is certainly a tricky one. Interest in the sport in Georgia i believe is at an all time high(Correct me if wrong) and cashing in on this is a must otherwise it could begin to wane. In all honesty out of the ENC 1A it is only (at the moment) Georgia who would be able to compete with the current top 6 nations and therefore why is it not possible just to make it 7 nations without relegation for now?

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

As has been said, a 6 Nations with relegation/promotion would just lead to Scotland, Italy and Georgia swapping positions every year. That's far from ideal and in my opinion, the drop off in revenue from Scotland/Italy compared with the increased revenue from Georgia wouldn't make it financially viable. Increasing the tournament to 7 Nations could work. I propose to begin after World Cup 2015:

1. A 7 Nations tournament.
2. Georgia get the 7th place.
3. Promotion/relegation to begin after the 2019 World Cup.
4. Promotion/relegation to be decided on a 2 year basis (eg results over both the 2018 and 2019 7 Nations so that every team plays everyone else both home and away).
5. Explore the possibility of granting Georgia some Amlin Cup or Heineken Cup spots.

That would protect the self interests of the present 6 Nations countries (which will undoubtedly be a factor if there's to be relegation) and help to expand the game in Europe. Along with that, ensure Nations Cup teams play more often against tier 1 opposition.

 

[nickdnz]

As has been said, a 6 Nations with relegation/promotion would just lead to Scotland, Italy and Georgia swapping positions every year. That's far from ideal and in my opinion, the drop off in revenue from Scotland/Italy compared with the increased revenue from Georgia wouldn't make it financially viable. Increasing the tournament to 7 Nations could work. I propose to begin after World Cup 2015:

1. A 7 Nations tournament.
2. Georgia get the 7th place.
3. Promotion/relegation to begin after the 2019 World Cup.
4. Promotion/relegation to be decided on a 2 year basis (eg results over both the 2018 and 2019 7 Nations so that every team plays everyone else both home and away).
5. Explore the possibility of granting Georgia some Amlin Cup or Heineken Cup spots.

That would protect the self interests of the present 6 Nations countries (which will undoubtedly be a factor if there's to be relegation) and help to expand the game in Europe. Along with that, ensure Nations Cup teams play more often against tier 1 opposition.

Can't pick many holes in this idea. +1

 

[McTallshort]

Will not happen! Scotland and Italy are fighting tooth and nail to keep both their teams in the HC when its obvious they should be in the Amlin. No way would they agree to promo/relegation in the 6N even if there are better teams out there. Talk about ring fencing......

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Will not happen! Scotland and Italy are fighting tooth and nail to keep both their teams in the HC when its obvious they should be in the Amlin. No way would they agree to promo/relegation in the 6N even if there are better teams out there. Talk about ring fencing......

We all want rugby to grow internationally as a sport. What needs to be worked out is whether giving Georgia a helping hand at the expense of either Italy or Scotland makes sense. What good is it if Georgia improve but don't bring additional money to the table? World rugby would be the loser.

I think everything possible should be done to keep interest up in established nations while simultaneously developing tier 2 nations. Being realistic, money will play a huge part. Cutting off relatively big markets like Scotland and Italy makes no sense. We need money to grow the game hence England rightly getting the 2015 World Cup. 2019 is the watershed moment when the game expands beyond it's traditional borders. I believe everything must be done to prime the sport for 2019 and expanding it beyond then.

 

[Seaton]

Drop Scotland and replace with Georgia. Then if one of the other current ENC countries reaches a sufficient level review the status quo then.

 

[London_Italian]

No way would they agree to promo/relegation in the 6N even if there are better teams out there. Talk about ring fencing......

This is also why neither Scotland or Italy will want to play Georgia in a friendly any time soon in case they lose and people start asking questions.

On the revenue issue.... isn't Georgia potentially as big a market for Rugby as Scotland? Both countries have a similar size population and with Rugby being (i think) more popular in Georgia as their unofficial national sport than in Scotland, would much revenue actually be lost swapping one with the other? With the population in Italy being 60 million, i would suggest we are potentially a very big market and very good for revenue.

 

[Thingimubob]

Drop Scotland and replace with Georgia. Then if one of the other current ENC countries reaches a sufficient level review the status quo then.

And kill off the game in Scotland? Not a good idea
Why not make it the 7 Nations and add promotion/relegation from there. You'd probably see Georgia and Romania swapping every year for that 7th place, but it'd give them plenty of exposure.

 

[McTallshort]

We all want rugby to grow internationally as a sport. What needs to be worked out is whether giving Georgia a helping hand at the expense of either Italy or Scotland makes sense. What good is it if Georgia improve but don't bring additional money to the table? World rugby would be the loser.

I think everything possible should be done to keep interest up in established nations while simultaneously developing tier 2 nations. Being realistic, money will play a huge part. Cutting off relatively big markets like Scotland and Italy makes no sense. We need money to grow the game hence England rightly getting the 2015 World Cup. 2019 is the watershed moment when the game expands beyond it's traditional borders. I believe everything must be done to prime the sport for 2019 and expanding it beyond then.

Wrong! Me and you want to grow rugby but the powers that be in Scotland and Italy want to keep their piece of the pie and F%$£ Georgia/Romania/Russia/Spain but lets be honest if England or Ireland were bottom of the pile we would not want to change things either

 

[j'nuh]

The obvious thing to do would be for a couple of top teams to play Georgia in Georgia to test the waters. Tell the southern hemisphere to sod off for one autumn and have the NH teams tour each other. From what I know, the Georgian rugby team have access to a 55000 seater? If they can get a decent amount in there for a friendly against a top 6N team then that could be convincing.