Aviva Premiership - Round 13

[TheSaffycen]

I've said it before but I think that Devoto can be our Frans Steyn. He can be quality at 12/15 and very competent at 10/13, but this does lend him to becoming a 22 not a 12. I want Devoto at Saracens personally, would work great with Barritt.

On Saracens we really lacked any sort of carrying ability, our backs have no strength and we picked a poor pack to go against Glos. Our tactics were to give them the ball and try and suffocate them, but without Barritt this never works. With BB we apparently concede 7-11 points less with him on the field, we have the same problems with ball carrying as England. Billy has to do all the carrying and then everyone says 'he really isn't that good, he doesn't even make that many meters' but he never will if no one else can carry.

 

[Tony Manx]

I've said it before but I think that Devoto can be our Frans Steyn. He can be quality at 12/15 and very competent at 10/13, but this does lend him to becoming a 22 not a 12. I want Devoto at Saracens personally, would work great with Barritt.

On Saracens we really lacked any sort of carrying ability, our backs have no strength and we picked a poor pack to go against Glos. Our tactics were to give them the ball and try and suffocate them, but without Barritt this never works. With BB we apparently concede 7-11 points less with him on the field, we have the same problems with ball carrying as England. Billy has to do all the carrying and then everyone says 'he really isn't that good, he doesn't even make that many meters' but he never will if no one else can carry.

Can someone tell me why F Steyn is revered? I am at a loss to understand why as he never seems to hold a place down in Stade ( when he was there) or the Boks! I think he has more petulance than talent but am more than happy to be shown, again, to be a complete idiot!!

 

[TheSaffycen]

Can someone tell me why F Steyn is revered? I am at a loss to understand why as he never seems to hold a place down in Stade ( when he was there) or the Boks! I think he has more petulance than talent but am more than happy to be shown, again, to be a complete idiot!!

I have no idea why he didn't hold down a place at Metro, but his talent is pretty apparent. he was good for Sharks but then he said he didn't want to play for the Boks or something, not sure.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

He can drop kick from really far away.

 

[Draggs]

Frans showed plenty of promise as a kid. Think he suffered the immaturity many young talents do (Henson, Cipriani) and he fell out of de Villiers while in France. Being shifted from wing to standoff to centre to fullback didn't help matters, and when he returned after the RWC11, his fitness was poor (overweight). Hasn't helped himself in that he took a Japan contract for the off-season, so he returned to SA in poor shape (much like Kankowski, JPP). Another falling out with the Springbok coach hasn't helped. Plenty of 'what ifs'.

 

[Tony Manx]

Frans showed plenty of promise as a kid. Think he suffered the immaturity many young talents do (Henson, Cipriani) and he fell out of de Villiers while in France. Being shifted from wing to standoff to centre to fullback didn't help matters, and when he returned after the RWC11, his fitness was poor (overweight). Hasn't helped himself in that he took a Japan contract for the off-season, so he returned to SA in poor shape (much like Kankowski, JPP). Another falling out with the Springbok coach hasn't helped. Plenty of 'what ifs'.

So is he really a measure for Devoto to be gauged by?

 

[Maverick1987]

Mate Devoto and tuilagi and or Burrell and Slade is the way the way to go. Eatmond, unfortunately with his size will never hack it, i'm a big fan but it just won't happen. Forget Twelvetrees he's average at best. I'm gonna say it again but Atkinson has so much potential, i love his style.

Eastmonds size hasn't really caused him any problems so far . His tackling technique is very good . He certainly isn't a revolving door a la Ashton

 

[goodNumber10]

I dunno man, you look at Baths defence with Burgess at 12 on Saturday and it just seemed so much more aggressive than anything I've seen with Eastmond at 12.

 

[Maverick1987]

I dunno man, you look at Baths defence with Burgess at 12 on Saturday and it just seemed so much more aggressive than anything I've seen with Eastmond at 12.

Of course Burgess is able to bully attacks more than Eastmond but Eastmond isn't a liability in defence by any means . Certainly not enough to warrant picking 36 over him for the 6N anyway . What he brings in attack is so far superior to literally anyone we have in England . Imo he's probably the best attacking centre in Britain

 

[goodNumber10]

I don't think he's a liability, but i don't' think he's half as effective and the question is, is he as amazing in attack that he negates that? I'd say no.

It's about balance, and I think we become very unbalanced with Eastmond in the midfield.

 

[Patchey]

The 'issue' with Eastmond isn't his tackling technique or percentage, but that because he is that bit smaller than most people running down his channel more often than not he'll make a tackle but the opposition will still be able to carry some momentum brought it.

Burgess, being a monster, obviously doesn't have this and actively pushed people back in tackles, breaking up the opposition's attacking momentum.

This shouldn't be an issue as long as a defense is organised with it in mind IMO.

 

[goodNumber10]

The 'issue' with Eastmond isn't his tackling technique or percentage, but that because he is that bit smaller than most people running down his channel more often than not he'll make a tackle but the opposition will still be able to carry some momentum brought it.

Burgess, being a monster, obviously doesn't have this and actively pushed people back in tackles, breaking up the opposition's attacking momentum.

This shouldn't be an issue as long as a defense is organised with it in mind IMO.

This is what I've been saying all along - he's a decent tackler but in the 12 channel he's a passive tackler - which allows momentum - you can't say that doesn't matter because it does and did in the Summer and did against NZ and SA last November.

International Rugby is ALL about gain line, it's all about going forward both in attack and defence.

I don't think Burgess is the answer - i was just using Bath as a comparative but the fact is Baths defence looked much more aggressive with him there than Eastmond and they didn't suddenly become a non-attacking team.

Ergo, i think England need a solid midfield that can stop momentum.

 

[Patchey]

This is what I've been saying all along - he's a decent tackler but in the 12 channel he's a passive tackler - which allows momentum - you can't say that doesn't matter because it does and did in the Summer and did against NZ and SA last November.

International Rugby is ALL about gain line, it's all about going forward both in attack and defence.

I don't think Burgess is the answer - i was just using Bath as a comparative but the fact is Baths defence looked much more aggressive with him there than Eastmond and they didn't suddenly become a non-attacking team.

Ergo, i think England need a solid midfield that can stop momentum.

Oh I didn't think you were suggesting Burgess as the answer for England, that was more aimed at Maverick's point re the difference between the two of them.

I guess it also depends how fat out line speed is in defense. Eastmond is a quick guy and if we can work out a way of moving up he makes his tackles past the gain line then it would matter less if the opposition carry some momentum, as they're still relatively static.

Of course if you play with a fast moving defense against a team that likes to take it to the gain line it attack things might get a bit...exciting. But then if hope having a fit, quick back row, would help.

I don't know what the answer is in terms of England. Well, is Twelvetrees could be made to perform at his best consistently that would probably fix it. But that seems to be a bit of a forlorn hope.

 

[TheSaffycen]

So is he really a measure for Devoto to be gauged by?

His talent yes, attitude no.