Australia vs England (3rd Test) - 16/07/22

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I'd say Isiekwe is probably one of the best operators in the air full stop including attacking opposition line outs and at restarts.

He's good in the tight and loose as well. I personally don't get why Hill starts over him continually but it's something mr Jones doesn't love I guess.

 

[BPM]

Hair pulling aside (which I hated to see), I think Hill's actually been pretty good.

Isiekwe is a great athlete, but I'd question whether he's as 'good in the loose' as you say. He's a very good defender with a great engine, but his carrying is not great for a massive, athletic bloke. Hill is probably better in the loose IMO.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Hair pulling aside (which I hated to see), I think Hill's actually been pretty good.

Isiekwe is a great athlete, but I'd question whether he's as 'good in the loose' as you say. He's a very good defender with a great engine, but his carrying is not great for a massive, athletic bloke. Hill is probably better in the loose IMO.

You mean hair pulling, elbowing in face and striking people in the face and being a general **** aside.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Hair pulling aside (which I hated to see), I think Hill's actually been pretty good.

Isiekwe is a great athlete, but I'd question whether he's as 'good in the loose' as you say. He's a very good defender with a great engine, but his carrying is not great for a massive, athletic bloke. Hill is probably better in the loose IMO.

I guess watching him at the saints I'd say he was a better carrier but I've not watched as much of Hill domestically to be honest so I may have black green and gold tinted glasses on.

I agree that Hill has improved and impressed me more (apart from his stupid ****les) but we shall see if that's a one off or continued thing.

Either way both better options than Ewels.

 

[BPM]

I don't see Ewels getting back in TBH. He's going to be out for a long while, during which time I'd expect Chessum and hopefully Isiekwe to establish themselves. I can also see Tizard getting in the mix soon (as I've said on a few occasions now, I'm surprised he didn't tour).

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Hair pulling aside (which I hated to see), I think Hill's actually been pretty good.

Isiekwe is a great athlete, but I'd question whether he's as 'good in the loose' as you say. He's a very good defender with a great engine, but his carrying is not great for a massive, athletic bloke. Hill is probably better in the loose IMO.

Lawes carrying was pretty meh for his first 60 tests….Kruis didn't carry too much and it didn't stop him becoming our best lock. It's not really Itoje's strongest suit either, although he has his moments.

Isiekwe's a naturally big guy, strong, athletic, good in the air, does the grunt stuff well, hits hard and can cover 6. Not to mention used to working with Itoje and George. Not investing in him has been a massive mistake in my book. He's a fringe player when he ought to be a regular in the 23 if not a starter.

And it's all Jones fault for thinking taking a 12 year old lock to South Africa was a good idea and judging him a failure on the back of it.

 

[Crash Hamster]

I agree with your opening sentence and the frustration on the lack of finishing. I also agree that the contract extension may well prove to be a 'monumental error'.

However, I'm not sure on the factual accuracy of whether this team 'could have been developed 18mths to 2yrs ago'.

Let's rewind 18-24mths. Of the starting XV last weekend, with the exception of Hill and Stuart (who were in the squad but not starting), the rest of the pack were regular or at least pretty regular starters for England. In the backs, JvP and Freeman had barely played a game for their clubs, Steward hadn't played many more and no-one had heard of Porter. Also, even as a massive fan of Marcus Smith, he wasn't ready to start for England then. On current form, you could argue he still isn't. Bench wise, Chessum and Arundell have only just broken through and being brutally honest, Will Joseph hasn't even done that. In short, there's no realistic way you could have picked this side back then.

You're right, I didn't express what I meant very well. I didn't mean that these exact players could have been selected, just that there could have been a radical rethink in selection whereby people played in their correct positions, Jones took a 'we are England, we've got some of the best attacking players in the world, we're going to give them the nous to play <cliché klaxon> heads up rugby with the confidence to score from anywhere' attitude and that culture was passed down to younger players who were deemed to be future internationals.

I'd not claim to be a world expert in the minutiae of team selection, but when you have an available 9 who is quick, can run, is a decent defender, can kick and can get a rapid, accurate pass away, why not play him? When you have wingers with extreme pace, why not play them? Apart from the lack of gambling on the wingers (to some extent) this is where we've finally ended up and the side looks better for it. Even Smith looked much better actually getting some time at 10 rather than constantly being closed down at 12 thanks to Farrell.

I just hope that Jones goes before he manages to wreck some of the brightest young talents England has ever produced. He has tremedous resources available, then picks a team to (unsuccessfully) contain Scotland, rather than letting Scotland worry about us. With the odd exception, he's been so timid and it boils my ****.

 

[BPM]

Except a fair chunk of that isn't really accurate.

This bolded bit I agree with.

Isiekwe's a naturally big guy, strong, athletic, good in the air, does the grunt stuff well, hits hard and can cover 6. Not to mention used to working with Itoje and George. Not investing in him has been a massive mistake in my book. He's a fringe player when he ought to be a regular in the 23 if not a starter.

However, for a significant chunk of his playing time at Saracens and the entirety of his stint with Saints, he was playing 6. IMO, he wasn't good enough to be in the England squad as a back row.

If he'd been playing alongside Itoje at lock, for that period, I think it's likely he would have been in the squad.

'Not investing in him' is definitely a missed opportunity but is he so good to class it as a 'massive mistake'? I wouldn't say so.

With all that being said, I would have picked him over Ewels every time.

 

[Derpus]

With my poshest and finest Arrogant English at on: A tour win down under doesn't mean enough to outweigh winning while playing terribly,
I don't want EJ to have an excuse to paper over cracks again

Spoken like a true Englishmen. You guys literally can't win because anything you achieve is merely the bare minimum you would expect.

This despite generally being middling at every sport you play with brief flashes in the pan. Particularly the case in football.

Your backline can't string two passes together and the other 6N teams wiped the floor with you. I reckon a series win in Aus, even if it isn't against Eales and the team of the 90s, is decent.

Anyway the game - EJ tried an expansive game plan in game one and it looked absolutely terrible. Reverted to type in game two and managed a fairly routine win. I expect we'll see more 10 man rugby on Saturday with an England win by less than 10.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Your backline can't string two passes together and the other 6N teams wiped the floor with you. I reckon a series win in Aus, even if it isn't against Eales and the team of the 90s, is decent.

Those two things don't go hand in hand though

We've played like utter **** for multiple seasons now - if we manage to win this weekend playing like utter **** then how does that encourage EJ to review his tactics and improve the side etc.?

Like I said: I want a good performance. A good performance should hopefully lead to a win - if it leads to a close loss then I'm comforted by the fact we're improving our gameplan.
If we play like dog crap and then win because Aus get a red card or a few more injuries or whatever then that vindicates EJ's poor gameplan and he'll continue on with it.
Fluking ugly wins isn't a long term strategy - I'd rather us have success in the 6N and a good RWC campaign than a dodgy win vs Aus in the summer.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Except a fair chunk of that isn't really accurate.

This bolded bit I agree with.

However, for a significant chunk of his playing time at Saracens and the entirety of his stint with Saints, he was playing 6. IMO, he wasn't good enough to be in the England squad as a back row.

If he'd been playing alongside Itoje at lock, for that period, I think it's likely he would have been in the squad.

'Not investing in him' is definitely a missed opportunity but is he so good to class it as a 'massive mistake'? I wouldn't say so.

With all that being said, I would have picked him over Ewels every time.

He's massive and it's a mistake…..

Fair point on the back row but if Jones had said to the player / club that he saw him as a lock and he'd really like to see him play in the row I'm sure Sarries would have accommodated that as best they could (albeit they had a stellar lock roster at one point). He also probably wouldn't have gone to Saints as their need was back row.

Who knows who said what to whom but I suspect that he's one that Jones just went cold on. I'm a fan and just disappointed that he's not higher up the list and in reality won't be until 2024 post Jones.

 

[BPM]

Well with Ewels out, he's now 4th choice lock behind Itoje, Hill and Chessum. I don't know if he is actually better than that at he moment? He's still surprisingly young and if he can concentrate on playing at lock, he has the potential to overhaul Hill. Although, if Chessum continues on his current trajectory, he looks equally likely to play his way in to being Itoje's long term partner.

The other caveat with Isiekwe is Tizard signing for Saracens. Money was clearly a massive motivation for Tizard, but playing alongside Itoje would also have been a big draw. He'll not want to miss out on game time and I'd back him to put in a big challenge to start at lock which might push Isiekwe back on to the flank …

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Isiekwe looks to have bulked up a bit over the last season and looks like a proper lock rather than a hybrid now - I still rate him really highly and would have him at 5 instead of Hill tbh, especially for this tour where Hill was coming in off of no rugby for several months
He's played less than 30 games at 6 for Saracens, out of 110, and only twice there since returning from Saints - so it's easy to see where they see his future

Chessum/Itoje feels a bit lightweight for a 2nd row - no tighthead lock there,
Lawes will be pushing 35 post RWC, think Chessum would be a great longterm replacement for him but depends whether Tigers use him at lock or backrow moving forwards (seems to be more of a lock these days?)

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Well with Ewels out, he's now 4th choice lock behind Itoje, Hill and Chessum. I don't know if he is actually better than that at he moment? He's still surprisingly young and if he can concentrate on playing at lock, he has the potential to overhaul Hill. Although, if Chessum continues on his current trajectory, he looks equally likely to play his way in to being Itoje's long term partner.

The other caveat with Isiekwe is Tizard signing for Saracens. Money was clearly a massive motivation for Tizard, but playing alongside Itoje would also have been a big draw. He'll not want to miss out on game time and I'd back him to put in a big challenge to start at lock which might push Isiekwe back on to the flank …

Chessum really looks the part but is currently in fairly inexperienced flavour of the month territory. He could either rise or fall quite quickly. Where for art thou, G Martin and T Hill?

Tizard and Itoje are maybe weighty enough but I'm not sure many clubs let alone national set ups would ideally want a 1.95 and 1.96 pairing. Not sure what Sarries lock stocks are like now, but maybe Tizard is seen more as Itoje's cover / potential successor?

 

[BPM]

Tizard's lineout work isn't his strength. He's more of a workhorse who is good in the tight and will carry hard. That's precisely why, I think Saracens May have signed him to be the beef to compliment Itoje, with Isiekwe fairly likely to shift to he flank.

Isiekwe is the better player but Tizard's continual improvement bodes really well, which is why I'm really disappointed he's gone.

 

[Grizwald]

Surprised to see Nick Isiekwe listed as 120kg from the sources I could find. Anyone who listens to the Egg Chasers pod cast I like their tongue in cheek suggestion of weigh bridges at grounds

There's plenty of potentials coming though in the Lock department. Chessum always looks solid, Tigers have also played him a lot at 6. I like the balance of a lighter more mobile pairing with a heavier tighthead lock.

On Saturday I'm interested to see how the Aussie coaching team respond. England have started strongly twice before they've got back into the game. If they can win that first quarter they should be able to go on and win the series.

There's also a chance that England steamroller the Aussies. I hope its the latter.

 

[Derpus]

Concerned about lineout and physicality in the first 50 TBH. That said, can't see what else DR could do with the cattle available. Keen to see what Wilson can bring - second most run metres of any Aussie in SR this season (including backs). Comfortable with the backline, although if Lolesio goes down its Hodge to 10 which is far from ideal.

I think the heartening thing is, even if we do get outmuscled, the muscle is there come RWC time - just not available for this tour. Plenty of tall timber to come back in guys like Arnold, Skelton and Rodda (and less tested guys in Aussie A etc).

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Team as expected

Don't get why JVP gets dropped glad Willis is ok

 

[Reiser99]

Team as expected

Don't get why JVP gets dropped glad Willis is ok

Ban him Olyy!

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Team as expected

Don't get why JVP gets dropped glad Willis is ok

I don't get that either.

Hope Stuart has another decent outing. He's largely taken his chance so far.