Argentina vs England - In England

[Bullitt]

So the English relocate oop norf to a stadium who's regular fans are renowned for chanting "Argentina", but this time Carlos Tevez will not be the subject of the praise.

Since their impressive run during the World Cup, Argentina have been in steady decline - Including a home loss to a makeshift Italy - and will be wanting to right some of their wrongs over the last 2 years by upsetting England. Maenwhile, the 6 Nations runner up meanwhile continue their mentality of "win at any cost" by once again selecting players who passed their sell-by dates several years ago.

This could either serve for a real ding-dong of a match, both teams being even handed... Or, it could really suck.

All discussion here.

 

[alexrugby]

I guess England Wins

 

[Hall]

Looks like they will. Tries from Matt Banahan and Delon Armitage.

 

[Hall]

A second for Armitage.

 

[Count of Devonshire]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teh Mite @ Jun 5 2009, 07:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Meanwhile, the 6 Nations runner up meanwhile continue their mentality of "win at any cost" by once again selecting players who passed their sell-by dates several years ago.[/b]

Harsh. Some of these chaps have proven beef. The Argentinians should have proved a much sterner test for an England side deprived of its 'Lions' and whilst they do not appear the side of the last world cup, it is a credit to English team that they did not. I'm all for proving our depth, it is one of the things which sets us apart from nations like Argentina.

 

[MunsterMan]

That and the fact you have a professional league. Count, you have done a bit of wumming in your time (If i haven't mistaken you for someone else, so answer me this, how does being beaten by the Baa Baas who were hammered by Australia, and going 33-5 down at one stage prove your depth? I also noticed the GP player of the season having a shocker at 12 for the Baa Baas this morning.

 

[Bullitt]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MunsterMan @ Jun 6 2009, 08:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I also noticed the GP player of the season having a shocker at 12 for the Baa Baas this morning.[/b]

You do f***in' well... The POTS was playing Number 8 for Argentina today. Still, a bit of GP bashing every now and again is good for the soul, eh?

Anyway, just got home;

Frontrow; Had the better of the scrum, Hartleys lineout was poor, but he made up for it in the loose. 6 o/a
Borthwick: Shockingly bad, did precisely nothing nor showed any leadership to warrant his selection, let alone captaincy. 4/10
Deacon: Very impressive 7/10
Haskell: Anonymous 2/10
S. Armatidge: Unspectacular, but solid 6.5/10
Easter: Powers are fading fast, needs to pass the torch 5/10
Care: 50% Genius, 50% Madness 6.5/10
Goode: Bad(e). Needs to learn that pass instead of constantly kicking the chuffing ball. A decent defence would have monstered him 4/10
Banahan: Chased the ball up well, took his score well also. 7/10
May: Looked like a poor mans Jamie Noon, never a good start. 4/10
Hipkiss: Solid in contact, good running lines, didn't miss a tackle 8/10
Cueto: Played his heart out, deserved something out of the game. 7/10
D Armatge: MOTM (IMO) for good reason 9/10

Notable subs:
Crane: Much more dynamic then Easter, not long enough to show his worth 6/10
White: Needs shooting. I wonder how much he was paid for those 3 minutes on the field? 0/10


Overall: England are in dire straits to be frank. If that was the 2007 Argentina, they would have been monstered. The old boys network needs to go, the tactic of "take only the 3 points" needs to be forgotten and the Leicester-Bath-Newcastle-Wasps axis needs to be disbanded - The fact the crowd spent the 1st half more interested in Mexican waves and in the second literally booed every time England went for the posts sums this England team up perfectly. They were lucky really that Argentina were equally as clueless. 4/10

 

[Count of Devonshire]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MunsterMan @ Jun 6 2009, 07:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

That and the fact you have a professional league. Count, you have done a bit of wumming in your time (If i haven't mistaken you for someone else, so answer me this, how does being beaten by the Baa Baas who were hammered by Australia, and going 33-5 down at one stage prove your depth? I also noticed the GP player of the season having a shocker at 12 for the Baa Baas this morning.[/b]

The Baa Baas game was an awful performance but not indicative of our depth. Any national side worth their salt and with an ounce of discipline will find the grind to overcome them by some means. Without seeing the game today, I'd imagine that the Australians were better set up, individually played better, and were much stronger on the set-piece than England were. I adamantly refuse to believe that the players on either side are too far apart in terms of ability or beef.

 

[MunsterMan]

Teh Mite, I wouldn't say good for the soul, but it is something to do. I know you are fond of a bit of bashing and winding up Irish/Welsh/Kiwi yourself.

But seriously, Jordan Crane doesn't start for England, even when the Lions are away? Best 8 in europe this season for my money. It never ceases to amaze me how lowly he is rated in England, do you know something about him we don't?

I'm sure Mapasua was GP player of the season this year? Maybe it was player's player of the season or something like that but either way he was shite today, came off after half an hour, not sure if it was through injury or playing badly.

 

[Bullitt]

England these days have a mentality of "win at all costs" - So they pick all the old, grizzly players who have in the past grinded out games despite the fact they're long past their sell-by date... Vickery, White, Thompson, Borthwick, Kay, Easter, Wilkinson, Goode, Noon & Blashaw all being good examples. (I wouldn't be surprised if Ben Cohen gets a surprise trip to Argentina this year). Combine that with the "old mates" selection policy which sees the constant selection of your Haskells, Ciprianis, Ellis' and co, it becomes impossible for youngsters to ever get a break.

Crane, Myler, Hipkiss (up until now), Allen, JSD et. al are constantly ignored in favour of the old boys. And that's the reason that England is very poor compared to the quality of players the local league produces.

 

[MunsterMan]

Surely you give your self the best chance of winning by picking the best players on form instead of the proven ones not playing so great?

 

[Bullitt]

You'd think so, but things are no different now then they were when Will Carling made his famous rant. It's the reason that SCW stormed out also.

 

[Hall]

Are you so wrapped up in your hatred of James Haskell that you forget he's only 24?

Fair enough he isn't the best 6 in the country but still, it's not as if he's hanging round like a stale fart.

 

[Bullitt]

James Haskell embodies everything that's wrong with the England Rugby setup and the opinions of the RFU towards its players. And he wouldn't even make it into the top 5 blindsides eligible for England if there were anything resembling a fair selection policy.

 

[shtove]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teh Mite @ Jun 7 2009, 09:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Crane, Myler, Hipkiss (up until now), Allen, JSD et. al are constantly ignored in favour of the old boys. And that's the reason that England is very poor compared to the quality of players the local league produces.[/b]

Crane is a serious prospect to lead England, and Hipkiss is good (better than BOD ... snigger!), but the others aren't reeeally worth hyperventilating about. Give Johnson a while - he'll deliver a decent mix, and old fellas will die off in time for the RWC.

 

[Bullitt]

 

[Bullitt]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Jun 6 2009, 11:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teh Mite @ Jun 7 2009, 09:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Crane, Myler, Hipkiss (up until now), Allen, JSD et. al are constantly ignored in favour of the old boys. And that's the reason that England is very poor compared to the quality of players the local league produces.[/b]

Crane is a serious prospect to lead England, and Hipkiss is good (better than BOD ... snigger!), but the others aren't reeeally worth hyperventilating about. Give Johnson a while - he'll deliver a decent mix, and old fellas will die off in time for the RWC.
[/b][/quote]

The only reason you think that is because you're brainwashed into it by the usual media spin. Much the same way as casual fans think Wasps are the "best team evar!!" despite never winning any league since 1997.

Also:
- Myler is a far superior 10 to Cipriani, Goode, Flood & Wilkinson in EVERY aspect of his game.
- JSD is world renouned, but plays for Gloucester so won't get picked instead of Sackey (whom still being an international is a travesty itself).
- Allen has never been given a chance.

Then there are the likes of Jackson, Cato, Robshaw, Skinner, Diggin, Mark Easter, Foden, Abendanon, Smith, Narraway, Dowson & god knows how many more who are forgotten or overlooked despite outstanding performances week-in-week-out (or at best dumped into the Saxons then forgotten) in favour for the Haskells and the Vickerys who simply aren't good enough for the standard but do instead have friends in the right places.

As for Johnno... He's was an outstanding player and captain, but he's not a coach. He knows nothing about player development, and so far has displayed a single game plan (kick for goal) and too much loyalty to former Leicestert teamm mates for the sake of getting them a pay day *coughJullianWhitecough*

 

[Count of Devonshire]

Myler will represent England at some point, I've no doubt. He's naturally going to be behind the rest because of his late switch to Union. Narraway and Crane will be in the mix soon, too. Johnson has done ok really in terms of results, Baa Baas aside, and I'm in favour of a slow turnover of the old pros rather than the mass upheaval that brings with it so many more problems. The old guard which remain are unspectacular but have been there before and done the job, not many players have the experiences of winning a world cup, coming out on top on tours to NZ, etc. Casting them all aside would be foolish, especially as I watched the Saxons take on the Argentinian A side on SKY afterwards, and some of the players mentioned would struggle with a proper international.

 

[feicarsinn]

Wait wait wait didn't Foden play in the 6N or was at least round the squad and I thought JSD was always getting called up and then having his leg fall off or something. The rest I cant really judge but I'll take yer word for it.

 

[Bullitt]

Foden got a quarter of a game against Italy then was promptly dropped in favour of, you guessed it, Ellis. JSD has been unlucky with injuries at the wrong time over the last 18 months, but before that he was blatantly ignored.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Count of Devonshire @ Jun 7 2009, 12:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Myler will represent England at some point, I've no doubt. He's naturally going to be behind the rest because of his late switch to Union. Narraway and Crane will be in the mix soon, too. Johnson has done ok really in terms of results, Baa Baas aside, and I'm in favour of a slow turnover of the old pros rather than the mass upheaval that brings with it so many more problems. The old guard which remain are unspectacular but have been there before and done the job, not many players have the experiences of winning a world cup, coming out on top on tours to NZ, etc. Casting them all aside would be foolish, especially as I watched the Saxons take on the Argentinian A side on SKY afterwards, and some of the players mentioned would struggle with a proper international.[/b]

If there was a decent coach at the helm instead of Steve Bates, that wouldn't have been an issue.