All Black new cap contenders

[MotherRucker1]

That is just WILDLY untrue though.

Dagg's attacking play has not been that great? That is such nonsense. Even going by the last European tour he outdoes Ben Smith. They are exactly even with the amount of minutes played (240, 3 gameseach). Clean breaks, defenders beaten are the exact same numbers - so they're even. Dagg gains more meters by running and offloading, kicked more, carried more, and contributed to 4 tries as opposed to none of Ben Smith.

Even defensively they aren't too far apart. Smith made more tackles, but only 2 more. Yup, that Dagg. Just ain't what he was in 2011.

 

[austingtir]

That is just WILDLY untrue though.

Dagg's attacking play has not been that great? That is such nonsense.

The Saders had a field day against the sharks and suddenly he's gods gift again... I just dont buy it.

 

[MotherRucker1]

Okay, well I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I'm just giving out what the stats are. Numbers aren't my opinion, they're numbers.

 

[austingtir]

Okay, well I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I'm just giving out what the stats are. Numbers aren't my opinion, they're numbers.

Did you even watch the video posted above... Even dagg in 2011 did not have an allround game anything like that.

The chances of Tuilagi making a breakout like that against us in a crunch game are way higher than Dagg doing anything of much use come the WC. Theres simply no way in hell Dagg could even dream of pulling that tackle off and pilfering the ball.

 

[MotherRucker1]

If you actually read the thread I have said time and time again that I accept that Ben Smith is the better tackler. All I have done is posted some attacking stats to back up what I'm saying about his ATTACK this year in Super Rugby and gave last year's European tour because I thought it was fair given they played the same amount of minutes and it's the most recent All Black performances.

You are going on about something which I have no issue with whatsoever.

 

[Shaggy]

I think its pretty simple ATM Jane and Savea are clearly the best wings. Ben Smith is clearly the best fullback.

Now weather that equates to Hansen selecting it that way for the initial games of the season before the WC I dont know but when it comes to the WC crunch games I cant see him not selecting that way baring injury or some huge form slump by somebody.

I fully expect to see Dagg and Smith on the wing to get game time but more so to keep everybody on their toes and rotation than anything.

I will be very very surprised if come the WC semi's and no injuries Ben Smith is not first choice.

Fantastic, I don't think I even debated who the first choice is, merely that there's room for them both if their form is good enough, and that they'll both get game time.

I'm not even going to try and crystal ball gaze into the future and try to predict who the in form wingers are going to be, or who will make up the match day back four (the starting three, plus the one off the bench), but I would be very surprised if the first choice FB, plays every minute, from the Quarter finals on. I don't think Jane's inclusion as the best right wing is a certainty either.

As for the barring injury statement, when was the last time we went through an RWC without any. That scenario is more than likely going to come into play, hence the need for cover and game time for all squad members.

Anyway, I'm done with the whole Dagg/B.Smith debate, I've wasted enough time and energy on it already ... If I post on here again it will be on topic (about new cap contenders)

 

[Icemn]

That is just WILDLY untrue though.

Dagg's attacking play has not been that great? That is such nonsense. Even going by the last European tour he outdoes Ben Smith. They are exactly even with the amount of minutes played (240, 3 gameseach). Clean breaks, defenders beaten are the exact same numbers - so they're even. Dagg gains more meters by running and offloading, kicked more, carried more, and contributed to 4 tries as opposed to none of Ben Smith.

Even defensively they aren't too far apart. Smith made more tackles, but only 2 more. Yup, that Dagg. Just ain't what he was in 2011.

im sorry.. no way is dagg's defense anyway near that of Ben Smith... yes they might have made the same amount... but what are the attempt vs completion stats? ben attempted 10 made 8 missed 2... dagg attempted 20 made 8 missed 12... believe me... im a hurricane at heart, nothing warms my heart more then seeing a full blown Hurricane backline, aaron smith/paranara, cruden/barett, savea, Nonu, c Smith, Jane and DAGG... but im putting my bias self aside and looking at the bigger picture, getting the best NZ FB into his position... one of the reason i dislike SA rugby is because they play players based on form of 4 years ago... now the AB do this with dagg... i might aswell support my home country then... damn this thread is about the AB new Cap contenders but its turned into a dagg vs ben smith war... damn wh do have 1st world problems if this is what we argue about... both of them regardless of who is the latter is probably way better than anything the other countries can offer (where are the halfpenny fanboys)

oh ya, can i add Ihia west and daniel Bowden to the mix??? bowden has really impressed me the past 2 games...

look at how immense BS is vs england! man! hey... why does Ben Smith (BS) initials equal BS (Bull*****) :O not fair

 

[MotherRucker1]

But it wasn't a Smith vs Dagg war to me. That's the difference between me and others in this thread. I really don't care who does better. I don't get offended at defensive stats that suggest Smith is better. Please actually read the thread. I'm not a fanboy of either player, I was just trying to bring some facts into the equation. Going from the last European All Blacks tour Dagg started finding form and Smith went quiet, which represented a shift from the Rugby Championship where Ben Smith had it over him. It's not me creating these stats from opinion, it's not me giving Dagg man of the match awards lately, it's not me making South African commentators sing Dagg's accolades. People are getting mixed up and mistaking a statistics and form conversation with a "Ben Smith is my favorite player and don't you question him" conversation.

But let's move forward.

 

[Larksea]

Ben Smith had a few quiet games last season.
Israel Dagg has had a few quiet years over the last few years.

 

[MotherRucker1]

That would be an awesome story if it were true. Some stats have gone down, some have remained pretty good as they have always been. You had a pop in another thread, but let's just let it go and get this thread back to new cap contenders.

 

[austingtir]

That would be an awesome story if it were true. Some stats have gone down, some have remained pretty good as they have always been. You had a pop in another thread, but let's just let it go and get this thread back to new cap contenders.

Man you really are from Canturbury via Hawkes bay arent you? Its the only way I can explain your backing up of Dagg who's been bloody average for about 2 and a half years.

The stats dont mean jack when it comes to Ben Smith as like Chuck Norris theres so stat for awesomeness. Now please STFU about Dagg he sucks end of story.

 

[jessta]

I'm very excited to see the makeup of the all blacks come 2016. I know its a world cup year but its quite intriguing to speculate what the squad will look like.

Potential full strength match day 23:

1. Wyatt Crockett
2. Dane Coles
3. Owen Franks
4. Brodie Retallick
5. Sam Whitelock
6. Jerome Kaino
7. Sam Cane
8. Kieran Read
9. Aaron Smith
10. Aaron Cruden
11. Julian Savea
12. Sonny Bill W
13. Ryan Crotty
14. James Lowe
15. Ben Smith

16. Hika/ Motuu/ coltman/ parsons?? Who!
17. Kaine Haines/ Reg Goode's??
18. Charlie Faumuina
19. Patrick Tuipulotu
20. Matt Todd
21. TJ Perenara
22. Beuden Barrett
23. Malakai Fekitoa

 

[ENZED-88]

now please stfu about dagg he sucks end of story.

amen!!

 

[MotherRucker1]

Man you really are from Canturbury via Hawkes bay arent you? Its the only way I can explain your backing up of Dagg who's been bloody average for about 2 and a half years.

The stats dont mean jack when it comes to Ben Smith as like Chuck Norris theres so stat for awesomeness. Now please STFU about Dagg he sucks end of story.

The only one who sucks on this board is you mate, stuck in your old fart ways instead of looking at any sort of facts whatsoever.

I think that was demonstrated by your advocating of cheap-shot play during the Sharks vs Crusaders match and other rugby matches during this season. I have not read anything from you that is evidence based, you just spew a heap of utter nonsense on a regular basis. People accepted Nick's stats, but as soon as I post some that demonstrate a very minor point you get defensive. I don't think I've even said who should be the starting 15 for the ABs? I've simply commented different teams, different approaches. Yeah, real one eyed Cantab that aye? All that reasoning and logic, ahh!

Dagg definitely isn't perfect. And should he be selected for every game? Nope. But stats are all we have to go on. Not some moron like you sitting in a corner rabbiting on about the "good old days." If you want to have a reasoned conversation about strategic selections for certain international teams and who would be best for those, that would be great. If not, just step back from the computer and use your brain.

Now go have some dinner at the 'home. Hopefully they've crushed up your pills into a drink or something. Cantankerous old sod.

 

[jessta]

Backrow examination.

Presumably six players will be selected: 1. Kaino 2. Messam 3. McCaw 4. Cane 5. Read 6??

Who will fill that 6th spot. Matt Todd would be the next best backrow in country but taking 3 specialist open side flankers isn't very balanced. They will need another 8/6.

I think Nasi Manu could be a dark horse here. Luatua and Vito are both too inconsistent. Jordan taufuas a year or so off. Liam squire could sneak in but I rate manu higher.

What are thoughts concerning makeup of backrow?

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Backrow examination.

Presumably six players will be selected: 1. Kaino 2. Messam 3. McCaw 4. Cane 5. Read 6??

Who will fill that 6th spot. Matt Todd would be the next best backrow in country but taking 3 specialist open side flankers isn't very balanced. They will need another 8/6.

I think Nasi Manu could be a dark horse here. Luatua and Vito are both too inconsistent. Jordan taufuas a year or so off. Liam squire could sneak in but I rate manu higher.

What are thoughts concerning makeup of backrow?

If they take six loose forwards then they will only be able to take three locks. I think the five you have listed will be the only loosies on the trip, personally.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

if they did take six (agree more than likely only 5) then it would have to be another open side wouldn't it?

 

[Peat]

If they take six loose forwards then they will only be able to take three locks. I think the five you have listed will be the only loosies on the trip, personally.

A lock/blindside is a pretty traditional pick for most countries - I guess Luatua would be your best shout on that?

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

A lock/blindside is a pretty traditional pick for most countries - I guess Luatua would be your best shout on that?

Both Luatua and Vito could make a good fist of lock, but to be honest I think we're better off taking a specialist lock who can handle some of the burden. Whitelock, Retallick and Tuipulotu are givens. Is Luatua really going to be more useful than Romano, Thrush, Broadhurst etc.? I'm fairly certain they'll take four specialists.

 

[nickdnz]

A lock/blindside is a pretty traditional pick for most countries - I guess Luatua would be your best shout on that?

Would be my thinking, although Victor Vito on the bench is probably the best line-out option. Kaino has also played at lock on occasions. I'd imagine it's between Luatua and Vito. People are throwing other names in there but at this stage there is no way Nasi Manu is going to be selected. He's never been capped and he has already signed to leave New Zealand for next season. Blade Thomson can cover both lock (at a push), 6 and 8 - but he's not been in the frame either. Liam Sqiure would certainly be a surprise and he can't cover lock (although he's been in the wider training squads) - I think he's more seen as one of the future. Matt Todd will likely miss out again as three opensides is overkill.

I would imagine they will go with one of Vito or Luatua (who on form probably misses out), to provide lock/6/8 cover if they decide to take 6.