A Political Thread

[TRF_heineken]

That's sort of besides the point, the US likes to style itself as the leader of the free world and the most developed nation on the planet. If you compare their president to that you'd find in the 3rd world, in most people's books that would be deemed a huge failure.

Yes things could be worse. Imagine what worse would look like and then imagine Trump has 4 more years. given the damage he has done in 4 already, that is a real possibility. The USA may still be in a better place but the rate at which Trump and his administration are destroying the system is unprecedented, even Nixon didn't cause that much damage. Do you propose Trump is given a free rein until he is literally the worst president on the entire planet or do you think he should be held to a higher standards as befitting his position?

And why is it a bad thing to cosy up to Dictators, and being more harshly towards Allies?

Seriously? You are right, you really do look at this through a different lens. There is an argument for treating dictators better to change their ways, Trump isn't doing that. If anything he is doing the opposite, he is trying to adopt their ways and has openly stated so. There is also an argument to be made for ensuring allies pull their weight, for example Trump is correct in saying Europe has not been pulling its weight when it has come to military spending and has relied on the USA to do the military work whilst sitting on the sidelines tutting. However Trump isn't doing that, he has attacked allied leaders personally, he has weighed in on domestic affairs that are none of his business, he has been petty and he has sabotaged the actions of allied nations. He treats America's traditional enemies better than he treats Americas traditional allies. That's sort of the whole point of having allies...

For Trump to send a delegation here, just to investigate what's going on in the agriculture sector, including the farm murders, just shows that he's taking things seriously abroad

White people potentially being murdered by black people, can't see why that might be a pet project of his... Notice the consistent themes in what he does and doesn't decide to investigate? Clue, it is NOTHING to do with the relative merits or any sense of justice, it is about stroking his ego and proving to himself what he already believes.

I guess the conservative lens of mine would never stack up to the liberal lens of yours. And that's okay. We all can't be the same with the same values and ideologies.

I for one think it's about time the cages are rattled. Keeping people on their toes and being unorthodox. Being a president of such a big country can't be an easy job, and I for one can think of many people worse than Trump in that position. All presidents make mistakes, they are human after all.

I mean, we had Nelson Mandela as president, and while he's still a beloved leader by many, many people forget that he was a mass murderer and a bomb-maker. But people tend to look at just the good part of his life and not the bad. Perspectives are different, and I'm okay with that.

 

[big ginger 8]

Ignore

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I guess the conservative lens of mine would never stack up to the liberal lens of yours. And that's okay. We all can't be the same with the same values and ideologies.

I for one think it's about time the cages are rattled. Keeping people on their toes and being unorthodox. Being a president of such a big country can't be an easy job, and I for one can think of many people worse than Trump in that position. All presidents make mistakes, they are human after all.

I mean, we had Nelson Mandela as president, and while he's still a beloved leader by many, many people forget that he was a mass murderer and a bomb-maker. But people tend to look at just the good part of his life and not the bad. Perspectives are different, and I'm okay with that.

The problem is your "shakeup" is resulting in attempts to sabotage the democratic system, destruction of the US postal service, mass polarisation of society, extensive criminal activity by those surrounding the president, politically motivated murders and death toll from a virus going into the hundreds of thousands. That's a price you think is worth paying to "shake things up"? Besides showing just how bad it can get and needing to address things to prevent it happening again, just what has this shakeup improved? This is not a liberal vs conservative issue, what Trump has done is objectively wrong.

Many people worse than Trump? Like who? Making mistakes is one thing, Trump is being actively malicious. That is a VERY different kettle of fish. His constant lying is not a mistake, it's a choice (or a compulsive habit he has absolutely no control over, not that that is better). To dismiss what Trump is doing wrong as just "mistakes" is frankly ******* pathetic. The fact you try to portray this as a simple case of different ideologies is ******* pathetic. I know plenty of conservatives I disagree with but that's about the extent of it, Trump is NOT someone who merely holds different views, he is someone who is fundamentally opposed to huge swathes of accepted norms on decency. Do you think persistent lying is ok? Do you think childish name calling is ok? Do you think knowingly letting thousands die is ok? Do you think using a country's justice system as your own personal means of enforcing a vendetta is ok? Do you think hiring someone to play the part of your opponent so you can role play shouting and firing them is ok? Do you think engaging in criminal activity is ok? Do you think all of those are merely matters of ideology and that those actions are those of people on the right wing? For **** sake man stop making excuses.

 

[Which Tyler]

The problem is your "shakeup" is resulting in attempts to sabotage the democratic system, destruction of the US postal service, mass polarisation of society, extensive criminal activity by those surrounding the president, politically motivated murders and death toll from a virus going into the hundreds of thousands. That's a price you think is worth paying to "shake things up"? Besides showing just how bad it can get and needing to address things to prevent it happening again, just what has this shakeup improved? This is not a liberal vs conservative issue, what Trump has done is objectively wrong.

Many people worse than Trump? Like who? Making mistakes is one thing, Trump is being actively malicious. That is a VERY different kettle of fish. His constant lying is not a mistake, it's a choice (or a compulsive habit he has absolutely no control over, not that that is better). To dismiss what Trump is doing wrong as just "mistakes" is frankly ******* pathetic. The fact you try to portray this as a simple case of different ideologies is ******* pathetic. I know plenty of conservatives I disagree with but that's about the extent of it, Trump is NOT someone who merely holds different views, he is someone who is fundamentally opposed to huge swathes of accepted norms on decency. Do you think persistent lying is ok? Do you think childish name calling is ok? Do you think knowingly letting thousands die is ok? Do you think using a country's justice system as your own personal means of enforcing a vendetta is ok? Do you think hiring someone to play the part of your opponent so you can role play shouting and firing them is ok? Do you think engaging in criminal activity is ok? Do you think all of those are merely matters of ideology and that those actions are those of people on the right wing? For **** sake man stop making excuses.

But none of that matters, so long as it upsets liberals.
That's literally the only thing that counts.

The Conservatives Who Rebel Against Obama by Blowing Diesel Smoke at Priuses

Forty-five second YouTube clips don’t come any more American than “Prius Repellent.” It starts with a camera angled from the passenger side window of a...

slate.com

 

[TRF_heineken]

The problem is your "shakeup" is resulting in attempts to sabotage the democratic system, destruction of the US postal service, mass polarisation of society, extensive criminal activity by those surrounding the president, politically motivated murders and death toll from a virus going into the hundreds of thousands. That's a price you think is worth paying to "shake things up"? Besides showing just how bad it can get and needing to address things to prevent it happening again, just what has this shakeup improved? This is not a liberal vs conservative issue, what Trump has done is objectively wrong.

Many people worse than Trump? Like who? Making mistakes is one thing, Trump is being actively malicious. That is a VERY different kettle of fish. His constant lying is not a mistake, it's a choice (or a compulsive habit he has absolutely no control over, not that that is better). To dismiss what Trump is doing wrong as just "mistakes" is frankly ******* pathetic. The fact you try to portray this as a simple case of different ideologies is ******* pathetic. I know plenty of conservatives I disagree with but that's about the extent of it, Trump is NOT someone who merely holds different views, he is someone who is fundamentally opposed to huge swathes of accepted norms on decency. Do you think persistent lying is ok? Do you think childish name calling is ok? Do you think knowingly letting thousands die is ok? Do you think using a country's justice system as your own personal means of enforcing a vendetta is ok? Do you think hiring someone to play the part of your opponent so you can role play shouting and firing them is ok? Do you think engaging in criminal activity is ok? Do you think all of those are merely matters of ideology and that those actions are those of people on the right wing? For **** sake man stop making excuses.

There is really no need to be so aggressive and antagonising against me.

Lying??? Show me a politician that isn't a lying mother******...

Mass polarisation of society is the norm in many countries at the moment. It's not exclusive to the US. Extensive criminal activity by those surrounding the president, again, not exclusive to the US. Politically motivated murders, as old as time, not exclusive to the US, and happened even before Trump was President. Rising death toll of a Virus with no exact cure, NOT EXCLUSIVE TO THE US.

All these things you mentioned are happening all over the world, and in some cases to a much larger extent per capita than the US.

 

[Gavin]

Lying??? Show me a politician that isn't a lying mother******...

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Politicians lying does not justify Trump lying. He's taken it to a whole new level where his lying is not even plausible or reflecting reality in any kind of sense and he's trying to normalize it.

 

[ncurd]

Politicians lie but usually within Western democracies if they are found to be lying in a demonstrable way historically there would be consequences. Trump and to a certain extent politics in Britain have taken lying to a new level where the polticians when caught out continue to perpetuate the lie and soemtimes double down on it. Its been highly weaponised in a way that simply didn't happen before (or at least a long time ago). Margaret thatcher is possibly the most divisive leader Britain has had in the past 50 year and even people who hate her with every fibre of their being wouldn't call her a liar. Even Blair over Iraq is considered more trustworthy than Johnson or Trump.

And I fail to see the argument 'we put up with so should you' when we haven't in the past.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

There is really no need to be so aggressive and antagonising against me.

Lying??? Show me a politician that isn't a lying mother******...

Mass polarisation of society is the norm in many countries at the moment. It's not exclusive to the US. Extensive criminal activity by those surrounding the president, again, not exclusive to the US. Politically motivated murders, as old as time, not exclusive to the US, and happened even before Trump was President. Rising death toll of a Virus with no exact cure, NOT EXCLUSIVE TO THE US.

All these things you mentioned are happening all over the world, and in some cases to a much larger extent per capita than the US.

People are literally dead and you are trying to palm it off as just "a mistake" and "political differences", damn right I'm going to be aggressive and antagonising to you if you belittle nearly 200,000 deaths like that. This isn't some ******* game, this isn't politics as normal, people are dying because of idiotic decisions being made so don't insult everyone by acting like it's nothing.

You seriously think Trump lies the same as any other politician!? Seriously!?

Correction, mass polarisation of society is the norm in countries where right wing popularists have taken control and crapped all over basic decency all in the name of "owning the libs". You seem to be using the yardstick of the most corrupt countries in the world as a valid point of comparison and that someone if you aren't right at the bottom of the pile then it's all ok. Where have I said any of this is exclusive to the US? I'm saying what he has done is destroy the US compared to where it was, the fact the US has not sunk to the level of Somalia does not mean it's therefore fine! Somalia and other countries have a long history of problems, the USA did not. A large chunk of the problems Trump has created himself (or enabled). It's not a continuation of the norm, it's actively making it worse.

You are right though, we do look at the world through a very different lens. I expect to hold leaders and countries to a high standard and do not like it when they fail, you on the other hand seem to think it's not worth paying attention to unless they are literally the worst in the world and anything above that can be excused.

 

[TRF_heineken]

People are literally dead and you are trying to palm it off as just "a mistake" and "political differences", damn right I'm going to be aggressive and antagonising to you if you belittle nearly 200,000 deaths like that. This isn't some ******* game, this isn't politics as normal, people are dying because of idiotic decisions being made so don't insult everyone by acting like it's nothing.

You seriously think Trump lies the same as any other politician!? Seriously!?

Correction, mass polarisation of society is the norm in countries where right wing popularists have taken control and crapped all over basic decency all in the name of "owning the libs". You seem to be using the yardstick of the most corrupt countries in the world as a valid point of comparison and that someone if you aren't right at the bottom of the pile then it's all ok. Where have I said any of this is exclusive to the US? I'm saying what he has done is destroy the US compared to where it was, the fact the US has not sunk to the level of Somalia does not mean it's therefore fine! Somalia and other countries have a long history of problems, the USA did not. A large chunk of the problems Trump has created himself (or enabled). It's not a continuation of the norm, it's actively making it worse.

You are right though, we do look at the world through a very different lens. I expect to hold leaders and countries to a high standard and do not like it when they fail, you on the other hand seem to think it's not worth paying attention to unless they are literally the worst in the world and anything above that can be excused.

You are making it sound like the KKK, and the segregation between white and black people in the US is a new thing. The US had most of the same problems they have now, for years and years now, it might have escalated a bit, on some levels, but on other levels it has been worse in the past. Mass polarisation was the reason for marches where people like Martin Luther King stepped up.

The idiotic decisions isn't Trump alone, he has a whole bunch of people advising him and working with him in making decisions, and some of them are also not right all the time. Nobody can be right all the time (unless you are my wife).

And every country has corruption, it's about how it's getting caught, and how people are being held accountable for their actions. Sure, here in Africa we take corruption to a whole new level, and we had about 5 sessions of impeachment of our former President, Jacob Zuma, and they all failed, until he was asked by his own party to step down. And even to this day he still hasn't been held accountable, and neither is his chronies. What makes it even worse is the influence from other countries such as rich people in India, and a media company in the UK that pulled the strings.

Fake news and the exaggeration of things are at an all time high, and it's very hard to distinguish at face value, which stories are true and which aren't.

How many posts were there about police burtality in the US of a specific incident, only to show the extended clip later on where the "victim" was either attempting to assault the officer, or resisting arrest?

It can't always be sunshine and rainbows everywhere. And sometimes it's best to rip off the band-aid and get out of the bubble.

 

[ncurd]

Fake news and the exaggeration of things are at an all time high, and it's very hard to distinguish at face value, which stories are true and which aren't.

Its not that hard use reputable news sites.....treat everything else you see with a huge amount of skeptcisim....

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

You are making it sound like the KKK, and the segregation between white and black people in the US is a new thing. The US had most of the same problems they have now, for years and years now, it might have escalated a bit, on some levels, but on other levels it has been worse in the past. Mass polarisation was the reason for marches where people like Martin Luther King stepped up.

The idiotic decisions isn't Trump alone, he has a whole bunch of people advising him and working with him in making decisions, and some of them are also not right all the time. Nobody can be right all the time (unless you are my wife).

And every country has corruption, it's about how it's getting caught, and how people are being held accountable for their actions. Sure, here in Africa we take corruption to a whole new level, and we had about 5 sessions of impeachment of our former President, Jacob Zuma, and they all failed, until he was asked by his own party to step down. And even to this day he still hasn't been held accountable, and neither is his chronies. What makes it even worse is the influence from other countries such as rich people in India, and a media company in the UK that pulled the strings.

Fake news and the exaggeration of things are at an all time high, and it's very hard to distinguish at face value, which stories are true and which aren't.

How many posts were there about police burtality in the US of a specific incident, only to show the extended clip later on where the "victim" was either attempting to assault the officer, or resisting arrest?

It can't always be sunshine and rainbows everywhere. And sometimes it's best to rip off the band-aid and get out of the bubble.

Nowhere have I said the USA didn't have these problems in the past, what I'm saying is that they were greatly reduced and Trump has come in an pretty much single handedly exacerbated a whole load of them. The whole destruction of the democratic system is a new one though, that's entirely on Trump.

Evidence suggests he ignores the people who give him sound advice and openly contradicts his own experts and makes out they don't know what they are talking about. That is him and him alone. Also you again only seem to deal with extremes, you are either right all the time or you make mistakes. The frequency, stupidity and seriousness of those mistakes you are completely ignoring and trying to make out that somehow Trump is equivalent to everyone else because everyone makes mistakes. You are also attempting to put down to mistakes what is actually malice.

Yes every country has corruption, therefore we should ignore the fact that Trump is personally corrupt, has surrounded himself with the most criminal and corrupt administration in history and is using that corruption to try to pervert the democratic process. The fact you have corruption and problems in South Africa doesn't mean Trump should get away scot free. There is also context, South Africa doesn't have a history of ever not being corrupt and frequent history of perverted democracy. That is the norm. What is happening under Trump in the USA is not the norm, he is actively overseeing a massive increase in corruption and perverting of the democratic system. He is instrumental in it and actively making it worse. He's not a corrupt man in an already corrupt system, he is a corrupt man who is corrupting a system. But again you have the attitude that if it is worse somewhere else, we should just ignore it...

Where do you think most of the fake news comes from? From the people who most frequently yell fake news. Again you have this "oh everyone does it, it's all the same, everyone is equal" completely apathetic attitude. Are you actually not capable of comprehending scale? Is the world completely digital? You are either perfect or all equally imperfect? Every one of your arguments has revolved around the latter, which is ridiculous.

You telling me to get out of the bubble when you're the one trying to brush it all under the carpet and ignore it? Yeah, introspection not really your thing? Little things like expecting the law to be enforced, expecting people to not do childish name calling, expecting people to care about a virus, expecting the president to not withhold aid from Democrat states to punish them, these are not "sunshine and rainbow" issues, these are just god damn basics.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Its not that hard use reputable news sites.....treat everything else you see with a huge amount of skeptcisim....

Ha! Even reputable sites get it wrong sometimes...

News24 over here and their partners have been found out a couple of times now. The thing is though, that because everything is now received so quickly, that the fact-checking isn't always completed before the article runs. Then retractions and amendments only happen after the initial shock and awe article has already grabbed the audience, and pushed them into a certain position on the matter at hand.

How does the saying go: "It's better to make an apology later, than to ask for permission prior"...

 

[ncurd]

I give up...

 

[Yulia]

I give up...

 

[McTallshort]

People are literally dead and you are trying to palm it off as just "a mistake" and "political differences", damn right I'm going to be aggressive and antagonising to you if you belittle nearly 200,000 deaths like that. This isn't some ******* game, this isn't politics as normal, people are dying because of idiotic decisions being made so don't insult everyone by acting like it's nothing.

You seriously think Trump lies the same as any other politician!? Seriously!?

Correction, mass polarisation of society is the norm in countries where right wing popularists have taken control and crapped all over basic decency all in the name of "owning the libs". You seem to be using the yardstick of the most corrupt countries in the world as a valid point of comparison and that someone if you aren't right at the bottom of the pile then it's all ok. Where have I said any of this is exclusive to the US? I'm saying what he has done is destroy the US compared to where it was, the fact the US has not sunk to the level of Somalia does not mean it's therefore fine! Somalia and other countries have a long history of problems, the USA did not. A large chunk of the problems Trump has created himself (or enabled). It's not a continuation of the norm, it's actively making it worse.

You are right though, we do look at the world through a very different lens. I expect to hold leaders and countries to a high standard and do not like it when they fail, you on the other hand seem to think it's not worth paying attention to unless they are literally the worst in the world and anything above that can be excused.

Yes most lie more. If they don't they get thrown on the scrap heap like Sanders.

Trump doesn't need to lie, he doesn't shy away from the fact he's a ******. Other pretend they are respectable and they really are not. If you take a balanced look at Biden or Harries you will see some very awful things they have done or backed. They are not on the same level as the Clinton's but to think they are any better than Trump is being very naive.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Trump doesn't need to lie,

Yet

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Overview

COVID-19 is a new type of coronavirus that causes mild to severe cases. Here’s a quick guide on how to spot symptoms, risk factors, prevent spread of the disease, and find out what to do if you think you have it.

www.webmd.com

Trump claims he 'up-played' the pandemic - CNN Video

President Donald Trump claims he "up-played" the coronavirus pandemic during an ABC town hall after telling Bob Woodward that he is intentionally downplaying the severity of the pandemic.

edition.cnn.com

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Yes most lie more. If they don't they get thrown on the scrap heap like Sanders.

Trump doesn't need to lie, he doesn't shy away from the fact he's a ******. Other pretend they are respectable and they really are not. If you take a balanced look at Biden or Harries you will see some very awful things they have done or backed. They are not on the same level as the Clinton's but to think they are any better than Trump is being very naive.

Seriously? Trump can't even get through a single day without lying and it has cost people their lives. Trump DOES shy away from the fact he is a *******, when has he even stated that is what he thinks he is? He doesn't, he genuinely thinks he's fantastic. He lies so much he even lies to himself. He wants people to love him because he genuinely thinks he's a great person. Someone who doesn't shy away form the fact they are a ******* would not seek love that way. Trump lies WAY more to protect his fragile ego. You seem to think Trump is the most honest of the lot, the truth is the exact opposite, everything about Trump is a fascade. He tries to play the hardman but he's actually feeble. He tries to claim he is intelligent yet hides anything to prove it, he claims he is a businessman genius yet lied about his tax returns, lied about his military service, lied about his relations with women. He has lied about people he has been associated with, lied about the origins of his business, lied about what people said about him, lied about his health. Can you think of anything Trump has said about himself that has been true? For **** sake the mans entire public persona is built on lies.

 

[McTallshort]

Yet

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Overview

COVID-19 is a new type of coronavirus that causes mild to severe cases. Here’s a quick guide on how to spot symptoms, risk factors, prevent spread of the disease, and find out what to do if you think you have it.

www.webmd.com

Trump claims he 'up-played' the pandemic - CNN Video

President Donald Trump claims he "up-played" the coronavirus pandemic during an ABC town hall after telling Bob Woodward that he is intentionally downplaying the severity of the pandemic.

edition.cnn.com

I said he doesn't need too. Never said he didn't

 

[McTallshort]

Seriously? Trump can't even get through a single day without lying and it has cost people their lives. Trump DOES shy away from the fact he is a *******, when has he even stated that is what he thinks he is? He doesn't, he genuinely thinks he's fantastic. He lies so much he even lies to himself. He wants people to love him because he genuinely thinks he's a great person. Someone who doesn't shy away form the fact they are a ******* would not seek love that way. Trump lies WAY more to protect his fragile ego. You seem to think Trump is the most honest of the lot, the truth is the exact opposite, everything about Trump is a fascade. He tries to play the hardman but he's actually feeble. He tries to claim he is intelligent yet hides anything to prove it, he claims he is a businessman genius yet lied about his tax returns, lied about his military service, lied about his relations with women. Can you think of anything Trump has said about himself that has been true? Come on...

Yes seriously. How about the people who were killed in Syria, Iraq and Libya due to lies? Or were the political classes telling us all the truth when the west attacked them?

Or do we blame Trump for the past 19 years of American wars?

If you think Biden or Harries are any better than Trump then you know nothing about them. The whole American political system is a wreck and Trump is a symptom of that not the cause.