A Political Thread

[TRF_Olyy]

Exactly, and has been shown on this and other forums they have no intention of talking about this and similar issues

Well when we try to we get shouted down and told we're laughing at suicide, so it's kind of hard to talk about anything in this echo chamber.

My best friend from all through school killed himself in Dec 2016, so no, I'm not laughing at or mocking young male suicide rates by saying that Russell Brand wants to work to stop drug addiction.

 

[ncurd]

.To think that he was going to/did stand for political office as well.

Problem is someone like truthteller is never going to listen to.anything you say regardless. One of the things you have to understand as part of.politics is there is such thing as wasting your breath. Winning someone over with rational debate can be hard even with someone willing to listen to you.

, Ncurd, #MeToo has become in part yet another dumb-dumb bullet for people like yourself to use.

A post in The Washington Times commented on the movement thus:

'There's an obvious difference between an alleged serial rapist and harasser, such as Weinstein, and someone who has consensual sex with a large number of women. But the distinction between behavior that is illegal and actions that are legal isn't the only dividing line worth drawing here. There's also a contrast between someone who sleeps with a lot of people on terms that are clear and acceptable to everyone involved, and someone who conducts themselves in such a way that their partners end up feeling misled or disappointed about the nature of their encounters. That distinction is between conduct that is ethical and that which ranges from morally dubious to outright unethical (but does not rise to the level of criminal).'

Lengthy post so I may not reply to all the points you raised. On this yes there is a difference between morally dubious and unethical our recent discussion about the presidents club is a show of extremely unethical business practics but it was not illegal. This is where the law can not.come into play but pressure is made in society to make these things unacceptable. We don't need laws to protect people as long as we argue they should not be part of societal norms. #metoo was a eye opener for me despite having a sister, mother and wife I've never really experienced what women can be subject to that in turn rarely happens to men (please note I'm not denying it doesn't happen) and most of the time were not talking about wolf whistles, were talking about sex in return for favours, unwanted groping, flashing to arouse or shock were the vast majority of stories I read from my own friends and family. I thinknconflatkng the problem to 'your not allowed to flirt anymore' is men deliberately being obtuse. Yes your allowed to flirt just know there is a line and if your get rebuffed don't be a dick. I assume most men act this way but clearly a not significant minroty don't.

Strangely enough, I was reading an online article about the dangers of these self-styled Paedophile Vigilante Groups and are they (like the #MeToo movement) capable of doing more harm than good? Yes, rapists and peadophiles deserve no mercy, but when we can label people we dislike in the most reprehensible of terms is there not a danger of false accusations being made? What if an ex-partner or business colleague has a grudge against a person and thinks that this is a good way to get back at him/her?

If you didn't like Person A, and spread rumours about him being a pervert, it is not long before you get an angry mob going after him irrespective of his innocence. In the modern age, you can be judge, jury and executioner. Just as in the Ched Evans case, it was a false allegation which led to a court case which ultimately should not have happened irrespective of Ched's morals (or indeed lack of).

No arguments here we should always be wary of vigilante groups and those trying to circumvent the law. But that doesn't mean we operate from a perspective the complainant is automatically lying. You belive the complainant and try to prove the case if you can not you be live the complainant was lying just not enough evidence was found. I am strong beliver in anonymity until proven guilty.

If privilege is such an issue, then let nobody have any - everything we then earn in life is what we have achieved by right. The fact is that there are a lot of hard-working people in the world and there are equally a lot of lazy people in the world. Work + effort should = reward, but we all know that is not the case and there are cases of people cheating to get ahead, or nepotism or whatever. I accept that society is not fair and not equal, but it is this which should entice people to do better. If there was a better parity rather than equality between us all, I would definitely accept that.

Parity/equality it's just different words for the same problem you are right we will never fully eliminate it but we should work hard to try and recognise it and put an end to it where you can. Instutionalised racism, sexism and other isms are part of life but we should recognise it in ourselves and work hard to be better people. I don't think that's something to disagree on.

I point out the flaws on the left, because you and others are too obstinately blind to accept that there are any flaws - instead you repeat the same old rhetoric ad infinitum; i.e. it's not our fault, we're not interested, we can't be bothered to listen to a point of view which does not agree with us tra-la-la-la-la. The Right points out its flaws for us, so really I don't need to comment on racists and bigots on the right because everybody with an IQ of 1 or more knows that they are both wrong and a waste of time and DNA.

I'm not really left, I guess I classify as center-left but ultimately I'm a centrist I don't belive strongly in a system where everyone gets exactly the same regardless of job in life. You have to create a system where the 'doers' and 'strivers' benefit otherwise the entire system become stagnant and more people don't try to better themselves. I am quite obstently a liberal meaning I belive everyone should be treated without impunity as long as their actions do not hurt another person. This said I believe there is importance to have the state provide essential public services to society to protect, educate and keep healthy at a excellent standard.

Equality is impossible to achieve - you can't say that for example you and I are the same. We're two very different people and we'll never agree on anything - that is brilliant, and both of our thoughts and opinions are needed in society with neither superseding the other. Also, somebody might work less hours than their male/female counterpart - should that person be paid the same? What if a man goes for a job miles away from home, because he is single and adaptable and can work late when needed - should he be barred from getting that job and instead should it be given to a young mother who doesn't want the job anyway nor the hassle of moving to another part of the country? You cannot treat people the same either - sure, a modicum of respect is always good, but we are all different and need to be handled differently - would you speak with a Disabled Person with Learning Difficulties the same way as you would a University Professor/Academic? I know that's one basic example, but no you wouldn't. It's different strokes for different folks.

You're right you can't treat everyone the same but you can make an effort to stop it becoming a problem when people should be treated the same which is currently not happening.

If you do indeed care about improving the quality of life for people like me who have come from nothing to become relatively something, you need to focus less on the virtue-signalling and more on action - better quality education, the chance to make it in the workplace or to start up businesses and enterprises, how to budget responsibly, how to run a home and become a man without going down the route of drugs and crime.

I hate it when people say but I came from nothing well good for you. But not everyone gets that lucky for me it was my father that made the great leap being the first person in my family that was university educated and in turn did well for a job he inspired his brother and myself(I actually was the first on my Mums side but it wont actually inspire anyone). But we have to accept that those who pull their families out of it are.the lucky and the few. I've never met anyone successful who also wasn't bloody lucky either in the hand they were dealt in life. Or just making good decisions or in the case of upper management most places I worked just happened to be working I the right place at the right time.

I see your last point, and say that that we should use yesterday to not be silent and reflective but to unite and talk together about creating a better society for all. Not just for me, nor for you, but for all. I hear what you are saying, but I think that you need to listen as well and for it not just to be a token gesture.

 

[Which Tyler]

 

[mania]

cheap shots at trump, why arent you celebrating the US seeing record lows in female and african american levels of unemployment?

for the same reason trump wants to show the world how many 100's of billions they spend on weapons of mass destruction and parading the armed forces as a deterrent to the world that he has his finger over the button.
so u don't think the military parade is self serving egotistical megalomaniac sht?
and are u really crediting trump with female and african american levels of unemployment? like he gives a sht

 

[truthteller]

Problem is someone like truthteller is never going to listen to.anything you say regardless. One of the things you have to understand as part of.politics is there is such thing as wasting your breath. Winning someone over with rational debate can be hard even with someone willing to listen to you. Lengthy post so I may not reply to all the points you raised. On this yes there is a difference between morally dubious and unethical our recent discussion about the presidents club is a show of extremely unethical business practics but it was not illegal. This is where the law can not.come into play but pressure is made in society to make these things unacceptable. We don't need laws to protect people as long as we argue they should not be part of societal norms. #metoo was a eye opener for me despite having a sister, mother and wife I've never really experienced what women can be subject to that in turn rarely happens to men (please note I'm not denying it doesn't happen) and most of the time were not talking about wolf whistles, were talking about sex in return for favours, unwanted groping, flashing to arouse or shock were the vast majority of stories I read from my own friends and family. I thinknconflatkng the problem to 'your not allowed to flirt anymore' is men deliberately being obtuse. Yes your allowed to flirt just know there is a line and if your get rebuffed don't be a dick. I assume most men act this way but clearly a not significant minroty don't.
No arguments here we should always be wary of vigilante groups and those trying to circumvent the law. But that doesn't mean we operate from a perspective the complainant is automatically lying. You belive the complainant and try to prove the case if you can not you be live the complainant was lying just not enough evidence was found. I am strong beliver in anonymity until proven guilty.
Parity/equality it's just different words for the same problem you are right we will never fully eliminate it but we should work hard to try and recognise it and put an end to it where you can. Instutionalised racism, sexism and other isms are part of life but we should recognise it in ourselves and work hard to be better people. I don't think that's something to disagree on.
I'm not really left, I guess I classify as center-left but ultimately I'm a centrist I don't belive strongly in a system where everyone gets exactly the same regardless of job in life. You have to create a system where the 'doers' and 'strivers' benefit otherwise the entire system become stagnant and more people don't try to better themselves. I am quite obstently a liberal meaning I belive everyone should be treated without impunity as long as their actions do not hurt another person. This said I believe there is importance to have the state provide essential public services to society to protect, educate and keep healthy at a excellent standard.
You're right you can't treat everyone the same but you can make an effort to stop it becoming a problem when people should be treated the same which is currently not happening.I hate it when people say but I came from nothing well good for you. But not everyone gets that lucky for me it was my father that made the great leap being the first person in my family that was university educated and in turn did well for a job he inspired his brother and myself(I actually was the first on my Mums side but it wont actually inspire anyone). But we have to accept that those who pull their families out of it are.the lucky and the few. I've never met anyone successful who also wasn't bloody lucky either in the hand they were dealt in life. Or just making good decisions or in the case of upper management most places I worked just happened to be working I the right place at the right time.

A lot of accusations are false or taken out of context. the undercover reporter at this event claimed she was sexually assaulted on newsnight, yet when pressed what did that mean, she said a man grabbed HER HAND? Trump was accused by 1 woman before the election but it was proven on camera she was NOT asaaulted by anyone, she attempted to charge through trumps bodyguards to get to him and one of them grabbed her wrist to stop her and this became a bruised wrist, trump had cameras to prove she was lying. She should have gone to jail for false accusation. Women now use aninymity and facebook and online sites to slander men. ALL accused should be anonymous until it reaches the courts. otherwise we have this withchunt where 1000s of innocent men are destroyed, named, shamed, lose their jobs, homes , incomes on slander. guilty till proven innocent, but even if found innocent their name and reputation and often careers and health is destroyed, as is their families. ONLY 5% of accusations are proven. 5% are proven as simply lies. The other 90% in the middle as a mess of lack fo evidence, different perceptions, drunken recollections, contradictions in stories and evidence. Its simple IF youve really been raped or attacked go to the police with evidence, no social media or the media

Lastly on this grim topic, mps MUST differentiate urgently the difference between serious sexual assault and trivial matters like having ones knee touched 30 years ago. It is ridiculous. 1000s of women touch mens knees too and yes pinch bottoms or grope male strippers or young male musicians and the likes. Lets keep some perspective here. Thats a world away from sexual violence and rape, all of which are horrific crimes that we can all agree should be getting the perpetrators massive sentences. My concern is the vast numbers of innocent men being destroyed now by either false accusations, and slander

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

What a vile fickle comment to dismiss all the mass of overlooked male problems? Shame on you
Brand is far too sympathetic to drug takers and never talks aboiut victims of drug related crime (drug related crime per head if 100s times worse than the USA) He also ignores the fact many users are also dealers who directly ir indirectly kill people with the drugs they supply them. He also ignores the fact population has risen 8 million in 3 decades and has pushed our public services to the brink and has displaced less well educated people from work. The benefits culture in these areas has entrapped these young people where work doesnt pay. It all leads to booze drugs apathy to work

And yet booze and rugby goes hand in hand. Whilst drugs get punished.

You portray drug users as the problem but then say they are the victim due to increased population, if that is how you feel then why can't you see why Brand is sympathetic to users ? The majority of users are as you say entrapped. It's also that kind of attitude that leads to users becoming more isolated and increased risk of sucide or OD.

 

[truthteller]

for the same reason trump wants to show the world how many 100's of billions they spend on weapons of mass destruction and parading the armed forces as a deterrent to the world that he has his finger over the button.
so u don't think the military parade is self serving egotistical megalomaniac sht?
and are u really crediting trump with female and african american levels of unemployment? like he gives a sht

Yes he is partly responsible, I think he gives a **** more than you. Hes a billionaire who didnt need to bother. The US economy under Trump is booming. 2.4 million new net jobs, 3.2% gdp growth, rise in Dow jones of 40% = $7 trillion. Great news for everyone and yes I think he does care. The left dont care otherwise theyd celebrate these figures. The left had $20 trillion debts jjust as they left trillions in debt in the UK. The left created austerity due to this and now blame the right.

 

[truthteller]

Well when we try to we get shouted down and told we're laughing at suicide, so it's kind of hard to talk about anything in this echo chamber.

My best friend from all through school killed himself in Dec 2016, so no, I'm not laughing at or mocking young male suicide rates by saying that Russell Brand wants to work to stop drug addiction.

Im genuinely sorry to hear that.

why didnt you contribute to the thread and state that in the first place rather than sneering and mocking?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I Will also say that Toxic Masculinity most likely on par if not more of a cause than Feminism when it comes to young male deaths.

I can't stand identity politics just becuase it's too generalized BTW.

 

[ncurd]

A lot of accusations are false or taken out of context. the undercover reporter at this event claimed she was sexually assaulted on newsnight, yet when pressed what did that mean, she said a man grabbed HER HAND?

Umm she did not say she was sexually assaulted she said it was extremely(she may have used the word very) mild but was just extremely odd thing to happen.

But then you haven't actually read what she wrote or seen her interview have you?

 

[ncurd]

Yes he is partly responsible, I think he gives a **** more than you. Hes a billionaire who didnt need to bother. The US economy under Trump is booming. 2.4 million new net jobs, 3.2% gdp growth, rise in Dow jones of 40% = $7 trillion. Great news for everyone and yes I think he does care.

Umm have you not been following the 'correction' over the past 72 hours?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Im genuinely sorry to hear that.

why didnt you contribute to the thread and state that in the first place rather than sneering and mocking?

I didn't sneer or mock,
and it's not a pity or points scoring contest.

 

[ncurd]

I Will also say that Toxic Masculinity most likely on par if not more of a cause than Feminism when it comes to young male deaths.

This I have to agree with coming to terms that I wasnt an 'alpha male' and more importantly that it was okay not to be and people didn't actually care that much was a huge step in my life.

 

[truthteller]

I Will also say that Toxic Masculinity most likely on par if not more of a cause than Feminism when it comes to young male deaths.

I can't stand identity politics just becuase it's too generalized BTW.

Yes just blame men , easy opt out. Maybe its men like yourself who refuse to even acknowledge these mass of undealt with male issues I have brought up here and choose instead to sneer and mock. why should female get vastly more funding for health and many other areas? when the problems with men are massively greater?

 

[truthteller]

This I have to agree with coming to terms that I wasnt an 'alpha male' and more importantly that it was okay not to be and people didn't actually care that much was a huge step in my life.

You sound brainwashed. Its never as simple as alpha male, I was never a so called alpha male, the truth is there is infinitely less support for boys and men in every area of society. They say oh men should talk more? Who to? there is very little or virtually no help for men in so many situations. this ends up with the suicides we see so often. Men can talk there is no one to talk to in many cases and no support structure.

 

[GarethGriffiths]

A lot of accusations are false or taken out of context. the undercover reporter at this event claimed she was sexually assaulted on newsnight, yet when pressed what did that mean, she said a man grabbed HER HAND? Trump was accused by 1 woman before the election but it was proven on camera she was NOT asaaulted by anyone, she attempted to charge through trumps bodyguards to get to him and one of them grabbed her wrist to stop her and this became a bruised wrist, trump had cameras to prove she was lying. She should have gone to jail for false accusation. Women now use aninymity and facebook and online sites to slander men. ALL accused should be anonymous until it reaches the courts. otherwise we have this withchunt where 1000s of innocent men are destroyed, named, shamed, lose their jobs, homes , incomes on slander. guilty till proven innocent, but even if found innocent their name and reputation and often careers and health is destroyed, as is their families. ONLY 5% of accusations are proven. 5% are proven as simply lies. The other 90% in the middle as a mess of lack fo evidence, different perceptions, drunken recollections, contradictions in stories and evidence. Its simple IF youve really been raped or attacked go to the police with evidence, no social media or the media

Lastly on this grim topic, mps MUST differentiate urgently the difference between serious sexual assault and trivial matters like having ones knee touched 30 years ago. It is ridiculous. 1000s of women touch mens knees too and yes pinch bottoms or grope male strippers or young male musicians and the likes. Lets keep some perspective here. Thats a world away from sexual violence and rape, all of which are horrific crimes that we can all agree should be getting the perpetrators massive sentences. My concern is the vast numbers of innocent men being destroyed now by either false accusations, and slander

Given the recent news story of Liam Allen, a student accused of a rape crime which he did not commit, coupled with eighteen men from Oxfordshire being found not guilty of sexually abusing teenage girls:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-42863076

I would say that you've hit the nail on the head.

Otherwise, we are back to the days of the Pendle Witch Trials.

 

[truthteller]

I didn't sneer or mock,
and it's not a pity or points scoring contest.

good because youve shown no empathy for men at all , pretty cruel to be honest

 

[truthteller]

Given the recent news story of Liam Allen, a student accused of a rape crime which he did not commit, coupled with eighteen men from Oxfordshire being found not guilty of sexually abusing teenage girls:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-42863076

I would say that you've hit the nail on the head.

Otherwise, we are back to the days of the Pendle Witch Trials.

all rape cases have had to be reviewed as in nearly 1000 cases the police with held evidence supporting the male defendant. It is simply staggering that these corrupt cops didnt get sacked enmasse

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Yes just blame men , easy opt out. Maybe its men like yourself who refuse to even acknowledge these mass of undealt with male issues I have brought up here and choose instead to sneer and mock. why should female get vastly more funding for health and many other areas? when the problems with men are massively greater?

Lol I'm not just blaming men.
But you seem to just be blaming women.

WTF are you even on I acknowledge it in my post that men suffer from undelt with problems.

It's people like yourself that try and turn everything into a us v them becuase that is the only way you can see things. You're just the same as the feminists your talking about.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

good because youve shown no empathy for men at all , pretty cruel to be honest

And you have?
You're just frothing at the mouth about feminism and the equal rights movement and shouting down any and everyone with an opposing opinion.

Repeatedly shouting about men's health issues in the way that you are is not showing empathy for men, it's creating an us vs them mentality and making the world a more toxic and divided place.