England v South Africa - 16/11/2024 (17.40)

[TRF_stormer2010]

What would the average age of this SA team be? Not saying anything I'm just curious it seems they've been round forever

It feels like they have been around, and they have been, the 2019 squad was very young, they say that it was the aim to win the 2023 world cup with that squad but they thought they would be too young to win it, then they did win it,
2023 was supposed to be the peak of this team, and now we are in the cycle where it's basically post peak, but massively experienced.

Its just about 31 in my expected starting XV and 30 on the bench. That's actually pretty balanced IMO.

I don't think its as easy as adding 3 years looking towards 2027. I expect WlR to make way for Willemse and Fassi. I would be surprised if Kitshoff and Malherbe made it (not that I am counting them above). Reinach also likely to not make it. I fully expect younger guys like Sacha Feinberg-Mngomezulu and Cameron Hanekom (both 22 currently) to be likely starters if they manage to keep fit and firing. I don't think DDA will make it and Am, Kriel and Esterhuizen are all 30 but 33 is fine I feel and there are young centers that are exciting and could make the step up. I am sure at least one of Canan Moodie (22), Suleiman Hartzenberg (21), Jurenzo Julius (20), Ethan Hooker (21) or Henco van Wyk (23) will make it into the RWC squad. My money is on Moodie and Van Wyk. Etzebeth and Snyman will probably make the RWC squad, probably with Nortje. Many of these players are already getting time. So I think the continuity is there even if the team won't resemble the 2019/23 squad but there will probably be a few faces like Etzebeth, Marx, Snyman, maybe PSdT, Pollard, Arendse and/or Kolbe perhaps, Willemse. I don't expect the 2027 team to be very far from ~31/2 average age.

 

[Half Pint]

As a jaded England fan, the best I can hope for is to be slightly ahead on the scoreboard* at the point where Borthwick hooks all the form players and throws the game. Has anyone looked into his betting patterns ??

(*just to add- even being ahead at any point in the game feels like a vain & distant hope)

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Its just about 31 in my expected starting XV and 30 on the bench. That's actually pretty balanced IMO.

If you remove Willie Le Roux it drops down to the late teens though

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Would be tempted to to move him to 8 with a brief to empty the tank for 55.

Like the idea of Martin at 6, but at the moment I don't think he'd be a huge improvement. He's not in peak form and would probably need to shed a bit of bulk.

Isiekwe and Martin in the row with Itoje, Underhill and CCS might be an interesting horses for courses selection. Won't happen obvs.

Less a long term more just a one off v SA

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I'm back to the stage of why bother discussing selections if the tactics and game plan aren't up to scratch.

Clearly there's room for improvement in performance. However….

In the last year we've been right in the mix against all the best teams in the world going well into the final quarter at which point pre-planned game plans and tactics largely go out of the window. It then becomes (should become….) less PowerPoint and much more of doing whatever it takes to seal the deal. So first and foremost that's onfield rugby intelligence and leadership, which has been an Achilles heel for some time as has bench strength and use. Fitness and desire ought to be taken as read.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

As a jaded England fan, the best I can hope for is to be slightly ahead on the scoreboard* at the point where Borthwick hooks all the form players and throws the game. Has anyone looked into his betting patterns ??

(*just to add- even being ahead at any point in the game feels like a vain & distant hope)

This is double RWC champs and no1 ranked vs no7 ranked.

If we're in touch going into the final quarter I'll be delighted!

I suspect it will be another brave but not really good enough effort, but it's also got the potential to go horribly wrong.

Selection will be interesting. You can't out Bok the Boks, but you need to be powerful enough to not be overwhelmed. For the most part the theory of running the big guys off their feet doesn't really work either, given that probably 7 of them will play little more than a half.

 

[Duct Tape]

England fan, but I think the real question, with recent display of defense, or rather lack of it, is if England can hold them under 40 or 50.

Can't stand the Boks but have to be real here. Hopefully I'm completely wrong and I'll be glad to be reminded of it after the match.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I can't see England being ahead in this except maybe right at the start if we come out the blocks hard. We are consistently leaving gaping holes in our defence and the Boks, having been well versed in a very hard blitz defence, will no doubt also be aware of the problems with such a defence and exploit it with ease.

I'm afraid I can't see anything other that SB adding yet another worst ever England record to his name.

 

[AlRums]

It'll be interesting to see blitz v blitz, but the boks have the attack that England doesn't.

England will come out with a fixed gameplan which again they won't be able to adapt as the game progresses.

SA by 20+

 

[saulan]

It'll be interesting to see blitz v blitz, but the boks have the attack that England doesn't.

I would say that with Neinaber gone, our blitz isn't as fast as it was with with him. It feels less like a stone wall that pushes you back that we saw in the World Cup and definitely more porous, but our scramble defense if you somehow make it through is still very strong, which was seen a fair bit against Scotland.

 

[Scotty]

It will be the same team with B curry in for Tom, Sleightholme starting for IFW. And a 6/2 split on the bench. I just hope the bench is 20 Underhill 21 Dombrandt(or I'd actually take Hill but it won't be)

Randall Georgeat 22/23( which is what I'm most scared of, guess Smith least adds attack at FB but that means Furbank as Winger. I'd almost rather Furbank/Slade as 10 cover with someone else at 23 to cover Centre.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I'm so disappointed in our run of form I don't think I can watch this game. There is something wrong with the tactics/ players understanding or executing them and then the substitutions are just mental.

Can we win this game? Yes if we had Rassie or Farrell coaching us. Can SB master a plan to beat the boks? Not if he can't even get past Australia.

 

[Which Tyler]

I'm so disappointed in our run of form I don't think I can watch this game. There is something wrong with the tactics/ players understanding or executing them and then the substitutions are just mental.

Can we win this game? Yes if we had Rassie or Farrell coaching us. Can SB master a plan to beat the boks? Not if he can't even get past Australia.

With calls for his head starting, and RFU launching a charm initiative by publicly giving him the backing of the board, and having O'Shea come out and spout about a generational talent of the younger generation, you just know we're going to pull this one out of the bag, paper over the cracks, and condemn us to another 2 years of dross.
Like that 1 game in 12 where Ben Youngs used to look like an international SH worth persevering with.

Sorry, I seem to have gotten out of bed on the wrong side this morning.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

With calls for his head starting, and RFU launching a charm initiative by publicly giving him the backing of the board, and having O'Shea come out and spout about a generational talent of the younger generation, you just know we're going to pull this one out of the bag, paper over the cracks, and condemn us to another 2 years of dross.

I think it's physically impossible for us to beat SA. They have 8 CCSs playing and another 6-7 on the bench. We have one Chandler and then forwards like George and Cole who wouldn't even make it into a South African URC side.

I'm be curious to know what happened if we beat SA and then lost to Japan or if we lose to both (or scrape past Japan), can we finally be rid of SB and give a new coach 2 years to prepare for the WC.

SB didn't provide that initial new coach boost, hasn't had a settle coaching team, hasn't got the correct tactics and hasn't even brought though a load of new players.

I can't see any way he can be viewed as anything but an absolute failure. It's a real shame as I wanted him to do well but he's too green in every aspect.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I'm so disappointed in our run of form I don't think I can watch this game. There is something wrong with the tactics/ players understanding or executing them and then the substitutions are just mental.

Can we win this game? Yes if we had Rassie or Farrell coaching us. Can SB master a plan to beat the boks? Not if he can't even get past Australia.

Put some respect on his name.

Will wait for the teams, think SB is doing a lot right on the pitch but not picking the right guys to execute in places. Midfield (not really sure there's great personell here) and the bench needs sprucing up.

 

[Saintjay]

Fully expect us to revert to Borthball for this one. Lots of box kicking and people running into forwards stood in the way.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I'm so disappointed in our run of form I don't think I can watch this game. There is something wrong with the tactics/ players understanding or executing them and then the substitutions are just mental.

Can we win this game? Yes if we had Rassie or Farrell coaching us. Can SB master a plan to beat the boks? Not if he can't even get past Australia.

Possibly. Rassie is unquestionably a driving force who brings creative ideas and seems to unite both players and Bok fans. Farrell, who knows how he'd do without the Ire structure?

Coaching's clearly an issue, but another way of looking at it though….how many Eng players would get into the Boks team or even their 23? Not many. Same question for any of the other top 4 - Ire, NZ and Fra….I reckon we'd be in a minority for all.

And then you think of individual talents - Telea and Savea, Sexton until recently and Furlong, Dupont and Penaud, Etzebeth and Kolisi (for his captaincy). Or elsewhere McVdM or Capuozzo. Smith's trying his best and there's something about IFW but we've just not had those real stand out performers who can consistently dominate matches or swing them with a bit of inspiration. Lots of good, honest players but hardly any with that kind of status or touch of genius. I like F Smith a lot, but I think it's more important to build a team around M Smith as he can make things happen and won't die wondering.

I know we've just slipped, but 5th with the current talent pool feels about right.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Possibly. Rassie is unquestionably a driving force who brings creative ideas and seems to unite both players and Bok fans. Farrell, who knows how he'd do without the Ire structure?

Coaching's clearly an issue, but another way of looking at it though….how many Eng players would get into the Boks team or even their 23? Not many. Same question for any of the other top 4 - Ire, NZ and Fra….I reckon we'd be in a minority for all.

And then you think of individual talents - Telea and Savea, Sexton until recently and Furlong, Dupont and Penaud, Etzebeth and Kolisi (for his captaincy). Or elsewhere McVdM or Capuozzo. Smith's trying his best and there's something about IFW but we've just not had those real stand out performers who can consistently dominate matches or swing them with a bit of inspiration. Lots of good, honest players but hardly any with that kind of status or touch of genius. I like F Smith a lot, but I think it's more important to build a team around M Smith as he can make things happen and won't die wondering.

I know we've just slipped, but 5th with the current talent pool feels about right.

I think we've got loads of super talented players who in another country would flourish in all apart from the front row.

But the players for whatever reason don't look organised or play that well in the England structure. You stick Itoje, Chessum, Martin, underhill, curry, Earl, Mitchell, smith x 2, Lawrence, feeeman, IFW in any other team and they'd excel. We've got so many players who have that world class potential but we need a structure to use them that doesn't involve kicking the ball every 2 phases.

 

[ChicagoKid]

I'll give predictions a crack. The Boks are going to want to run England off their feet.

1.) Ox
2.) Bongi
3.) Du Toit
4.) Eben
5.) Mosert
6.) Siya
7.) PSDT
8.) Weise
9.) Reinach
10.) Manie
11.) Cheslin
12.) DDA
13.) Kriel
14.) Arendse
15.) Fassi
16.) Marx
17.) Steenkamp
18.) Koch
19.) RG
20.) Kwagga
21.) Louw
22.) Williams
23.) Pollard

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I think we've got loads of super talented players who in another country would flourish in all apart from the front row.

But the players for whatever reason don't look organised or play that well in the England structure. You stick Itoje, Chessum, Martin, underhill, curry, Earl, Mitchell, smith x 2, Lawrence, feeeman, IFW in any other team and they'd excel. We've got so many players who have that world class potential but we need a structure to use them that doesn't involve kicking the ball every 2 phases.

I agree we could be a lot better coached. And of course anyone will look better playing alongside better players in a slick, stable outfit.

But I'll ask again, how many of those you've just named would be first choices in the top 4 ranked teams?

NZ might be interested in a lock or 2, but I couldn't see any of them picking Earl , Freeman or Lawrence for example, nor T Curry on recent form. Mitchell's certainly not kicking out Dupont or JGP. Underhill can't even make our team although I reckon that's a massive mistake.

So we can and must do better. But we also need to be realistic on our player calibre. And until our front row and centres are sorted it's probably all moot anyway.