A Political Thread

[ncurd]

oh dear.....

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The reality is this was a completely proportional response to a massive war crimeI

Whilst I do understand where you're coming from, on the other hand why is America the one to respond? It's going nothing to do with them, unlike the film they aren't the World Police.

If, as above, it does turn out to be the rebels behind the chemical attack then America have launched 50 missiles at a foreign government airbase for no reason.

 

[ncurd]

Whilst I do understand where you're coming from, on the other hand why is America the one to respond? It's going nothing to do with them, unlike the film they aren't the World Police.

If, as above, it does turn out to be the rebels behind the chemical attack then America have launched 50 missiles at a foreign government airbase for no reason.

Its a fair question, first up the problem is the UN is a waste of time so the people who should of sanctioned this are completely useless cause by the veto's.

Who should act? I really don't know my thinking is more in line of someone has to and I'm glad someone had. NATO are probably the closest thing we have to something that can be effective and should be agreed upon but reality.



On the if it turns out to be the rebels despite people's assertions the 2013 attacks most likely culprit was Assad as stated by the UN https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghouta_chemical_attack
This time the attack can only be launched by an aircraft, that leaves potential options of being Syria, Russia, USA and Britain who are the only forces operating aircraft in the area. So yeah I'd said the evidence pretty much as clear cut as its going to be.

 

[Gavin]

Who should act? I really don't know my thinking is more in line of someone has to and I'm glad someone had. NATO are probably the closest thing we have to something that can be effective and should be agreed upon but reality.

The actions of the US reminds me of the beginning of the 2nd Gulf War. Remember that?

The US and UK went to war with Saddam Hussein because he had chemical weapons, however they were never discovered.

This time the attack can only be launched by an aircraft, that leaves potential options of being Syria, Russia, USA and Britain who are the only forces operating aircraft in the area. So yeah I'd said the evidence pretty much as clear cut as its going to be.

What media outlets claim that the chemical attack could only have been launched by an aircraft?

From my knowledge of warfare, which is not great except what I have read and studied at university, launched a chemical attack from an aircraft is very inefficient as at the point of 'explosion' which releases the chemicals it results in the majority of it being burnt up by flames etc.

It is far more efficient to conduct a chemical attack from land based weapons.

In addition, it has already been proven that the US gave chemical weapons to the Al-Nusra (one of their moderate rebels factions who surprising has links with Al-Qaeda) and actually trained them in how to use them.

I have also just read that the Russians claim an airstrike hit a rebel depot which was full of chemical munitions.

 

[ncurd]

Ah the completely inane arguement of the intelligence agencies were wrong in Iraq and therefore can never be right ever again......

Oh and I go by what the BBC reports as fact
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-39500947

 

[Gavin]

Ah the completely inane arguement of the intelligence agencies were wrong in Iraq and therefore can never be right ever again......

Not when that 'wrong intelligence' led to a destabilisation in the Middle East and, it could be argued, the rise of ISIS. Not to mention the benefits it had to the US for removing Saddam and getting a pro-US government in charge of Iraq

Oh and I go by what the BBC reports as fact
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-39500947

Lolz.

The same BBC that is completely accurate and reported that the terrorist attacks in St. Petersburg was because of Russia intervention in Syria, how was disproved when the identity of the suspect was published.

 

[ncurd]

Yeah I'm going to stick with "oh dear..."

 

[McTallshort]

What war crime has occurred?

The unconfirmed chemical attack?

I remember several years ago when Assad was accused of a chemical attack which was the main reason why the US decided to intervene, however it was later proved that the Syrian Rebels committed the chemical attack. Further chemical attacks when then suggested to have the same 'hallmarks' as the aforementioned rebel chemical attack.

I find the whole chemical attack as being very fishy.

People have to ask, what does Assad have to gain from the chemical attack? In my view, nothing.

Of course the attack does destabilise the peace talks which began a day before the attack and also moves the public's mind away from the US-led attacks in Iraq which is resulting in a great humanitarian crisis and a large civilian casualty list.

Victory in the civil war hes currently fighting?

 

[Gavin]

Yeah I'm going to stick with "oh dear..."

Remember when Assad surrendered his entire chemical and biological weapons arsenal in 2013, which was decommissioned by international groups?

He did this after the alleged sarin attack which was actually committed by the rebels.

Remember in 2013 when the Turkish officials detained rebels (Al-Nusra) who had sarin gas and the agents used to make it?

They are the same group who stole 200 tons of chlorine gas from a government chemicals facility in 2012.

In 2014 the UN confirmed that two cylinders seized from the opposition by the Syrian army contained sarin.

There is a lot more to this incident than meets the eye. The rebel groups and terrorist groups have the capability to use such weapons.

 

[McTallshort]

Ah the completely inane arguement of the intelligence agencies were wrong in Iraq and therefore can never be right ever again......

Oh and I go by what the BBC reports as fact
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-39500947

So at least 6 independent sources claim it was an air delivered chemical weapons attack but Assad, Putin and Gavin say otherwise and according to Gavin chemical weapons are not delivered by aircraft despite similar attacking in the Iran/Iraq war. Must tell all the NBC instructors I had in the army that they knew ****.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Victory in the civil war hes currently fighting?

Would he really be stupid enough to do it with the whole world watching and Donald Trump with his finger on the trigger?
Unless he was hoping to provoke America in the hopes that Russia will up their support of his regime in response?

 

[ncurd]

Ignoring Gavin, the perceived wisdom is in 2013 he did the same and got away with it with zero response he's also done other horrible things against civillians and nobody has done anything.
Russia's protection has pretty much let him get away with anything.
As to what he'd gain, what does anyone gain by this attack?
He wouldn't of expected the US response as Trump had previously spoken highly of Assad.

Look I accept the argument Assad gets little from it but that not stopped despots throughout history doing incredibly stupid things.

 

[McTallshort]

Would he really be stupid enough to do it with the whole world watching and Donald Trump with his finger on the trigger?
Unless he was hoping to provoke America in the hopes that Russia will up their support of his regime in response?

Yes of course he would, he has the backing of Russia and China and he has done it before. Also don't forget America once said that the use of chemical weapons would be a red line but then proceeded to do nothing when they were used.

Your not dealing with a sane, normal person, hes a brutal dictator with some major backing from powerful equally brutal friends. What does he care if the western democracy's moan.

- - - Updated - - -

Ignoring Gavin, the perceived wisdom is in 2013 he did the same and got away with it with zero response he's also done other horrible things against civillians and nobody has done anything.
Russia's protection has pretty much let him get away with anything.
As to what he'd gain, what does anyone gain by this attack?
He wouldn't of expected the US response as Trump had previously spoken highly of Assad.

Look I accept the argument Assad gets little from it but that not stopped despots throughout history doing incredibly stupid things.

Amen to that

 

[Gavin]

Also don't forget America once said that the use of chemical weapons would be a red line but then proceeded to do nothing when they were used.

That red line was after the chemical attack which was initially attributed to Assad but later proved to be a rebel attack.

But also bare in mind that chemical attacks are a 'red line' for the US when used by other nations, but they are happy to use chemical weapons in Iraq during the push to liberate Mosul.

Some people seem to not be understanding my view on this. Chemical weapons should not be used at all, however it would have been a lot smarter for the US to wait until the origins of the chemical attack was confirmed by independent human rights organisations or the UN before letting rip with airstrikes against a sovereign state.

 

[McTallshort]

That red line was after the chemical attack which was initially attributed to Assad but later proved to be a rebel attack.

But also bare in mind that chemical attacks are a 'red line' for the US when used by other nations, but they are happy to use chemical weapons in Iraq during the push to liberate Mosul.

Some people seem to not be understanding my view on this. Chemical weapons should not be used at all, however it would have been a lot smarter for the US to wait until the origins of the chemical attack was confirmed by independent human rights organisations or the UN before letting rip with airstrikes against a sovereign state.

Rubbish, who proved it.

Independent source please confirming US aircraft used Chemical weapons in Iraq.

Yes lets wait to see who used air dropped chemical munitions in Syria because the Rebels have so many aircraft. Suppose we provided them with the weapons and thus now deserve another terrorist attack.

 

[Gavin]

Rubbish, who proved it.

UN Human Rights Council.

Independent source please confirming US aircraft used Chemical weapons in Iraq.

US already confirmed that they have used white phosphorus during their offensive on Mosul (which includes civilian areas).

Yes lets wait to see who used air dropped chemical munitions in Syria because the Rebels have so many aircraft.

As already mentioned you do not need aircraft to use chemical weapons.

Suppose we provided them with the weapons and thus now deserve another terrorist attack..

Well the US did provide the rebels with chemical weapons and training on how to use them, however this does not mean anyone deserves a terrorist attack.

 

[ncurd]

Any links to prove your 'evidence'?

Because it states here the United Humans Rights Council said the perpetrators needed access to the Syrian goverment arsenal.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghouta_chemical_attack

Damn actual facts getting in the way of lies.

 

[McTallshort]

UN Human Rights Council.



US already confirmed that they have used white phosphorus during their offensive on Mosul (which includes civilian areas).



As already mentioned you do not need aircraft to use chemical weapons.



Well the US did provide the rebels with chemical weapons and training on how to use them, however this does not mean anyone deserves a terrorist attack.

But this attack was carried out by aircraft.

- - - Updated - - -

Any links to prove your 'evidence'?

Because it states here the United Humans Rights Council said the perpetrators needed access to the Syrian goverment arsenal.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghouta_chemical_attack

Damn actual facts getting in the way of lies.

Wasting your breath mate he cannot prove anything

 

[ncurd]

Oh I know I've just heard it on talk radio so many times this morning with presenter not intervening. It's how falsehoods like this become the 'truth' people repeat what they heard as fact and then other people belive it.

It's less for Gavin's benefit and more so other people realise he's talking out his arse.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Furk Sweden being hit now.