A Political Thread pt. 2

[Which Tyler]

And close a lot of close tax loopholes and treat capital gains as income except for primary homes which should always be exempt.

Pretty sure that suggestion is why we got Brexit

 

[General Melchett]

When I saw PTSD I was wondering what a South African flanker has to do with Bolivia but then realised the initials weren't exactly the same.

 

[General Melchett]

The reason Starmer isn't going near mentioning higher taxes IMO is because he knows the Tories will have a field day with scare mongering campaign ads even though their option to raise borrowing will likely lead to people's cost of living increasingly indirectly through inflation going back up and higher interest rates. Higher borrowing also just kicks the can down the road with tax rises merely being delayed unless there is a big upsurge in economic growth which is unlikely. I think Starmer has tried to fight the election fairly and professionally but the Tories would rather have a dust up in the gutter with truth twisting, scare mongering and ads like that red carpet going across the beach.

The country badly needs economic growth which has been massively impacted by Brexit (both lack of skilled workers and reduced trade with the EU and other countries that relocated operations from the UK post Brexit) but no-one is willing to call it because the idea of closer ties with the EU just leads to more Tory scaremongering re. immigration. Sunak was being a disingenuous **** last night by trying to link freedom of movement to boats and implying that asylum seekers are all illegal.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Nope - false equivalence there.

Braverman would happily have thousands of people deported into conditions where a premature death is almost inevitable - and would do it with a smile on her face.

I'd assume your referring to the murder of Jo Cox - who was killed by someone (Thomas Mair) who'd also happily have thousands of the same people deported into conditions where a premature death is almost inevitable. And be delighted at it.

Ironically, for one being a Neo-Nazi and the other a hardcore Zionist - their views on lots of things would probably be shockingly aligned.


Its also clear that attempting to talk to the likes of Braverman in a reasonable debate is a waste of time. Look at Sunak vs. Starmer, or Boris vs. anyone. They'll not change their position one iota - and will happily blatantly lie away or cherry pick stats that are utterly misleading to make their case. So what's the alternatives? Probably one of the more palatable ones is shocking them into looking at themselves in the mirror.

If the political classes ever wonder why so many people have lost faith in politics - its their inability to actually listen, absorb and react to what they are being told. Talking over someone's perfectly legitimate point and utterly disregarding it without any thought to it is the modus operandi of politicians these days.


One of the most obvious examples - Tony Blair's little war in Iraq. How many million protested against it before war was declared? Did Blair listen? Clearly whatever "evidence" they had was dodgy as f*k and you could see through the tracing paper it was written on! Weighing one against the other and clearly there was not sufficient justification to override the will of the people.

There's a bit of a difference between wanting to deport people and mass murdering said people. I have no idea to be honest, but I assumed the reason she was called a genocidal **** was because of her stance on the Isreal/Palestine conflict and not her views on immigration but I could be wrong, if I'm right then what you said about her deporting people to their certain deaths becomes a bit irrelevant but I guess we won't know the exact context of the comment.

I agree with you about the state of politics I guess I just disagree that the solution is to throw more petrol onto the fire. People that shout genocidal (insert swear word) in front of someone's kids also has no interest in having a reasoned discussion. They just want to shout "genocide I win" and that's it. I agree Braverman has almost certainly contributed to this toxic environment but there's bad actors on both sides of the spectrum and it's understandable how people can get emotional about this topic I just hope it doesn't boil over, as much as I despise her, I wouldn't want to see her dead.

I agree on Iraq as well. The West has made a lot of mistakes but I won't be throwing out the baby with the bath water as I still think the West can be a real driving force for positive change in the world. With what's going on in the Ukraine I'm glad most people are more or less on the same page (though should be doing more but we're probably very wary of the mistakes we've made in recent history)

TLDR: it's better to try and hear people out/have reasoned discussion with people especially if those people do not share the same values as you.

 

[ncurd]

snip

Incidentally this is why I applaud Starmer's stance on Trans issues at least in terms of framing the debate. Saying there's too much toxcity in the debate. I still think a gender recognition having a 2 year cool off period is too long but the rest is step in the right direction.

(he's right about the equalities act too)

 

[Saintjay]

There's a bit of a difference between wanting to deport people and mass murdering said people. I have no idea to be honest, but I assumed the reason she was called a genocidal **** was because of her stance on the Isreal/Palestine conflict and not her views on immigration but I could be wrong, if I'm right then what you said about her deporting people to their certain deaths becomes a bit irrelevant but I guess we won't know the exact context of the comment.

I agree with you about the state of politics I guess I just disagree that the solution is to throw more petrol onto the fire. People that shout genocidal (insert swear word) in front of someone's kids also has no interest in having a reasoned discussion. They just want to shout "genocide I win" and that's it. I agree Braverman has almost certainly contributed to this toxic environment but there's bad actors on both sides of the spectrum and it's understandable how people can get emotional about this topic I just hope it doesn't boil over, as much as I despise her, I wouldn't want to see her dead.

I agree on Iraq as well. The West has made a lot of mistakes but I won't be throwing out the baby with the bath water as I still think the West can be a real driving force for positive change in the world. With what's going on in the Ukraine I'm glad most people are more or less on the same page (though should be doing more but we're probably very wary of the mistakes we've made in recent history)

TLDR: it's better to try and hear people out/have reasoned discussion with people especially if those people do not share the same values as you.

The main article on the Bbc references the amount of abuse MP's are getting over Gaza. With a significant rise in threats and abuse.

One labour MP has bits of her local area she can't even go to due to threats.

Like you said, still no excuse to abuse and threaten people in front of kids. The original post is simply wrong in agreeing with or supporting that behaviour.

 

[Welsh Exile]

The main article on the Bbc references the amount of abuse MP's are getting over Gaza. With a significant rise in threats and abuse.

One labour MP has bits of her local area she can't even go to due to threats.

Like you said, still no excuse to abuse and threaten people in front of kids. The original post is simply wrong in agreeing with or supporting that behaviour.

This is what I mean about it not just being Braverman. I consider myself pretty left wing, I even consider myself pro Palestinian as my definition of that is believing that Palestine should have its own internationaly recognised state and Isreal should make several concessions including ******* off out of the West Bank and allowing for at least a symbolic amount of Palestinians to come back with the right of return, but I don't think you can blame the toxic environment we have in politics solely on people like Braverman.

There are clearly people on the left that embolden people to go out and shout abuse at politicians which even if you think they deserve it (which I don't necessarily disagree with by the way) thats not what is going to make politics less divisive in this country, and these people should be held to account the same way Braverman should be but the thing is, we can hold politicians to account in a democracy at the ballot box but extreme media figures pumping out hateful rhetoric are harder to hold to account.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Which is why I'd target higher income earners rather than the bottom rate or VAT. My point was merely a fear of increase shouldn't spook people.

Oh yeah I'd abolish National Insurance as well but increase Income Tax. (National Insurance is a nonsense that mainly targets low income PAYE people).

I don't mind meeting NI but make it progressive like income tax. The current NI system is a joke and benefits the wealthy.

 

[Gavin]

Some of the Conservative social media posts on what Labour will bring are awful.

But this one I can't figure out the link between what Rayner is saying and the French.

Any thoughts?

 

[General Melchett]

Fighting the election in the gutter. I assume what she said in some way resembles the situation in France. I can't believe the electoral commission or whichever body is responsible allows ads like that where individuals are ridiculed and often misrepresented not to mention disrespecting neighbour countries who are supposed allies. No wonder the rest of Europe doesn't like us if that's how the party in Government behaves.

 

[Saintjay]

Some of the Conservative social media posts on what Labour will bring are awful.

But this one I can't figure out the link between what Rayner is saying and the French.

Any thoughts?

Given the recent discussion on attacks aimed at individuals. It amazes me how many of these are aimed at women MP's. Twatter posts like this don't help.

I'm guessing it's a dig at her union / shop steward background. When in reality one of the issues i have with Labour is actually not being stronger on workers rights, local government funding, union support etc.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Given the recent discussion on attacks aimed at individuals. It amazes me how many of these are aimed at women MP's. Twatter posts like this don't help.

I'm guessing it's a dig at her union / shop steward background. When in reality one of the issues i have with Labour is actually not being stronger on workers rights, local government funding, union support etc.

Nothing screams in touch with the people quite like attaching someone for having a normal background...

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Given the recent discussion on attacks aimed at individuals. It amazes me how many of these are aimed at women MP's. Twatter posts like this don't help.

I'm guessing it's a dig at her union / shop steward background. When in reality one of the issues i have with Labour is actually not being stronger on workers rights, local government funding, union support etc.

Nothing screams in touch with the people quite like attacking someone for having a normal background...

 

[Reiser99]

Sounds like Biden had one job to do and he failed miserably.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah, sounds like a car crash, Biden unable to form a simple sentence and Trump just spouting nonsense unchallenged
Ridiculous that these are the two choices for "the leader of the free world". Biden was too old last time round let alone this.

Really wouldn't be surprised if Trump wins again, now - feels like the tides are turning a bit - and the Democrats will have no one to blame but themselves for not bothering to try and find someone new to lead them in the last decade


Edit: Jeeze, a quick google says the latest prediction is a narrow Biden popular vote win but a heavy Electoral College win for Trump

 

[General Melchett]

Just saw the highlights and felt sorry for Biden. Wouldn't surprise me if he just wants to retire and has been pushed into a second term due to the Democrats screwing up their succession planning.

Trump just needs to turn up, keep the old ticker going and let Biden hit the self destruct button. Easiest Presidential debates in history sadly.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Democrats really were stupid going with biden and their whole succession planning being simply those linked to Obama. A second trump presidency will be worse than the first and could realistically usher in a dictatorship.

 

[ncurd]

Democrats really were stupid going with biden and their whole succession planning being simply those linked to Obama. A second trump presidency will be worse than the first and could realistically usher in a dictatorship.

He'd have to overturn the constitution or unleash a military coup. Seriously we're protected by the 22nd amendment which no court will overturn. That or all out Civil War in the states.

It's not going to be a pretty 4 years but I also think decent into dictatorship just won't happen. Mire likely he'll do **** all and just absolve himself of his crimes.

After last night though I wouldn't be surprised if the DNC didn't endorse a new candidate by mid August.

 

[Saintjay]

Predicted Trump up by 6 points. Dems running scared of the debate in September.

Congratulations to the Democrats for giving Trump the opportunity to potentially pardon himself. A convicted criminal is the better choice than there candidate.

Not sure if a Trump presidency is going to be good for Europe (nato) or the Ukraine.

 

[General Melchett]

I think a President Trump is good for Israel, bad for Palestine & Ukraine and not great for the EU and NATO. Trump has been critical of the EU in the past and seems to prefer us. His mother was Scottish, he has golf courses here and seems to love the pomp and ceremony with the royals.