A Political Thread pt. 2

[Welsh Exile]

Do you not ever wonder why so many people are completely disenchanted with "democracy" in the UK?

I'm sure there are many reasons but it sounds like you don't really understand what a parliamentary democracy is otherwise you wouldn't of said what you did but maybe you're in favour of a direct democracy I dunno but it wouldn't surprise me. As I say, back in the real world part of being a government in waiting is acting like a government and sometimes that means forcing people to vote for things they don't like. And that's ignoring the optics of things getting spun like Labour stil have an anti semitism problem which, again, is probably a good thing to avoid.

 

[Amiga500]

I'm sure there are many reasons but it sounds like you don't really understand what a parliamentary democracy is otherwise you wouldn't of said what you did but maybe you're in favour of a direct democracy I dunno but it wouldn't surprise me. As I say, back in the real world part of being a government in waiting is acting like a government and sometimes that means forcing people to vote for things they don't like. And that's ignoring the optics of things getting spun like Labour stil have an anti semitism problem which, again, is probably a good thing to avoid.

Yeah, so you do actually have no idea why so many are f**ked off with it then.

Lets go to war in Iraq says Tony Blair... and by proxy Welsh Exile and ncurd 100% support that.

I'm on the side of Robin Cook in that debate.

Of all decisions a parliament makes, its been demonstrated over time that any major foreign policy decisions should be first in the queue for open vote and never left to the whims of a few in cabinet.

 

[Amiga500]

that means forcing people to vote for things they don't like

That means dictating to everyone what way the country will be run. Just like a dictator.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Do you know how many people are in the UK and how many MPs there are? I'll boil it down in a way you understand, there's only a few in government compared to the entire population.

 

[Welsh Exile]

That means dictating to everyone what way the country will be run. Just like a dictator.

Are you 14?

 

[ncurd]

Yeah, so you do actually have no idea why so many are f**ked off with it then.

Lets go to war in Iraq says Tony Blair... and by proxy Welsh Exile and ncurd 100% support that.

I'm on the side of Robin Cook in that debate.

Of all decisions a parliament makes, its been demonstrated over time that any major foreign policy decisions should be first in the queue for open vote and never left to the whims of a few in cabinet.

For starters Robin Cook was privy to the intelligence unlike many other backbenches. He said so in his speech.

I'm also not against any MP voting with conscience or rebelling against thier own government. That's part of a healthy parliament.

But ultimately the government must set policy and of your part of a party you should broadly follow that policy. Collective responsibility means cabinet and other minister need to toe the government line. This is exactly why Braverman got sacked not because she's a vile human being.

Foreign policy absolutely is an area where other countries need to see that the government they are dealing with are united. Even if behind closed doors there are misgivings. Anyone undermining the government can't be part of it.


I applaud anyone wanting to go against the Labour line on this topic. But I'm also not naive enough to know free votes are rarely common place (and usually when the party knows they'd win and can afford the rebellion).

Broadly speaking I'd you want to have a free vote in this kind of thing sit as an independent.

 

[Reiser99]

Also we are a representative democracy. We choose who represents us and that's pretty much it. It's their job to do what we want and if we don't like it then we vote them out. There is 0 requirement for them to actually do things in a democratic way or in a way the people voted except the knowledge they might lose their seat, especially in a system like our with no official constitution or set of rules.

 

[Which Tyler]

The problem is with party politics (exacerbated by FPTP), not parliamentary or representative democracy.

In theory, we vote for an MP who's job is to represent the interests of their constituents (with access to greater knowledge and debate).
In reality, we vote for a party, mostly based on the leader of that party, and our MP's primary responsibility is to their party. We're a presidency in all but name.

 

[ncurd]

Also we are a representative democracy. We choose who represents us and that's pretty much it. It's their job to do what we want and if we don't like it then we vote them out. There is 0 requirement for them to actually do things in a democratic way or in a way the people voted except the knowledge they might lose their seat, especially in a system like our with no official constitution or set of rules.

I would caveat it with its not their job to do as we say. Its their job to represent but also provide leadership. Their job is to not blindly do what we ask but understand the complexity of what they are voting on and debate it. Just because the constituents want a thing doesn't mean they are right.

Its the principal argument for representative rather direct democracy (that and logistics)

 

[Amiga500]

But ultimately the government must set policy and of your part of a party you should broadly follow that policy.

What is more important to you - that our representatives actually represent us (as is supposed to be the case) or they by proxy only at best in theory* represent the constituents of their party leader?

*and we know in reality even that is tenuous due to bribery lobbying etc.

 

[Amiga500]

Foreign policy absolutely is an area where other countries need to see that the government they are dealing with are united. Even if behind closed doors there are misgivings. Anyone undermining the government can't be part of it.

From that it seems you still support Blairs war in iraq? Democracy in action eh?

 

[ncurd]

What is more important to you - that our representatives actually represent us (as is supposed to be the case) or they by proxy only at best in theory* represent the constituents of their party leader?

*and we know in reality even that is tenuous due to bribery lobbying etc.

That's not how party politics works and you know it. They are elected on the manifesto if their party under the leadership of one person (or two for the Green's) they are expected to follow that leadership.

From that it seems you still support Blairs war in iraq? Democracy in action eh?

Reductio ad absurdum and completely ignores the rest of my post.


Your arguing for a system with no political parties and a government that can't function properly as no one can be relied on on a vote by vote basis to support the government. you also think of it a single man dictatorship rather than decision made behind closed doors and then showing a united front outside of it.

You support PR? you go to a further extreme people don't have representatives but elect bodies of a party to boradly represent that viewpoint. At which point it comes even more important to properly represent what they elected behind and follow leadership with that group.

 

[Gavin]

 

[Reiser99]

And yet gets told it's not relevant to the debate...

 

[Amiga500]

That's not how party politics works and you know it. They are elected on the manifesto if their party under the leadership of one person (or two for the Green's) they are expected to follow that leadership.


Reductio ad absurdum and completely ignores the rest of my post.

I don't recall seeing any Labour manifesto promise on how they'd vote on a war in the middle east.

When off manifesto, it is clear as day that parliamentarians should not be expected to tow any party line but instead vote ideally on critical evaluation of the situation bearing in mind canvassing of their constituents, or failing that, with their conscience.

Its a complete disconnect of representative democracy that the representatives, and by extension the electorate, are suppressed by the decisions of one or two.

 

[ncurd]

I don't recall seeing any Labour manifesto promise on how they'd vote on a war in the middle east.

When off manifesto, it is clear as day that parliamentarians should not be expected to tow any party line but instead vote ideally on critical evaluation of the situation bearing in mind canvassing of their constituents, or failing that, with their conscience.

Its a complete disconnect of representative democracy that the representatives, and by extension the electorate, are suppressed by the decisions of one or two.

Yeah you know that's not what I meant by referring to the manifesto....

I think your not getting what you want and completely disregarding how our systems works (or doesn't) as a reason to complain about the people operating in it as its currently set up.

 

[Reiser99]

How broken does a legal system have to be where a defendant can sue the judge to pause a legal decision they made?

Trump assails judge and clerk in fraud trial as gag order temporarily lifts

The ex-president calls the actions of court officials in his New York fraud trial a "disgrace".

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Bada-Bing!]

 

[General Melchett]

I do wonder what Cameron's game is. Does he have ambitions of becoming Tory leader again? Or maybe he just wants to get himself in a position of power and influence again so he can make more cash after the Tories lose the next election.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I do wonder what Cameron's game is. Does he have ambitions of becoming Tory leader again? Or maybe he just wants to get himself in a position of power and influence again so he can make more cash after the Tories lose the next election.

I'd say the latter.

IBM suspends ads on X after they appeared next to Nazi posts

The decision came a day after owner Elon Musk endorsed an apparent antisemitic conspiracy theory.

www.bbc.co.uk

The sooner Twitter dies and Musks influence with it, the better. He's an unhinged man baby. It's amazing how such dysfunctional people end up with so much power and influence with followers looking at them as someone worthy of following...