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A Political Thread pt. 2

Probably just looking to improve his legacy, so he's not just remembered as the bloke who snagged a pig and caused Brexit.

Snagged was a typo, but seems to work so I'll leave it.
 
General Melchett said:
Or maybe he just wants to get himself in a position of power and influence again so he can make more cash after the Tories lose the next election.
Click to expand...
He 100% does not need to be foreign sec to enhance his private industry career, he would be completely fine without it.

I know lots of you believe Tory = evil to the very core, no matter who they are, but is it too much of a stretch to really just belive the bloke believes in public service?
 
Not Mike Brown's Sock said:
He 100% does not need to be foreign sec to enhance his private industry career, he would be completely fine without it.

I know lots of you believe Tory = evil to the very core, no matter who they are, but is it too much of a stretch to really just belive the bloke believes in public service?
Click to expand...

After the way he lobbied the Treasury to bail out a failing Greenshill capital (which he had a stake in) with taxpayers money?

No.

I'm sure there are some decent Tories with good intentions. I did have time for Rory Stewart when he was in the Tory party.
 
Not Mike Brown's Sock said:
He 100% does not need to be foreign sec to enhance his private industry career, he would be completely fine without it.

I know lots of you believe Tory = evil to the very core, no matter who they are, but is it too much of a stretch to really just belive the bloke believes in public service?
Click to expand...
It's more to do with his proven dodgy lobbying after leaving office, not the mere fact he is a Tory...

Also when they are doing **** like this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67448602

Why would you believe they believe in public service. In fact what in anything the Tories have done makes you think any of them give 2 shits about public service? They have undermined public service repeatedly through sheer corruption, underfunding, lying, attacking the civil service, musical chairs with ministerial and PM positions... Nothing about how they act says they give a **** about anything except themselves. They have repeatedly lied to the public from start to finish. Yes I know all politicians lie, are selfish etc but there are still scales and what we have seen under the current crop is the complete destruction of any shred of integrity or competence.

I mean genuinely, what can you point to as a Tory success since they took over from Labour? Even modest ones.
 
I found Andrew Marr's suggestion of an autumn election next year interesting.

Could be short term if a position in the lords was worth something to Cameron. Overall the appointment is still strange and just seems like desperation from Sunak.
 
Not Mike Brown's Sock said:
He 100% does not need to be foreign sec to enhance his private industry career, he would be completely fine without it.

I know lots of you believe Tory = evil to the very core, no matter who they are, but is it too much of a stretch to really just belive the bloke believes in public service?
Click to expand...
If he believed in public service, the best service he could provide is by going away. I have loads of issues with Boris etc, but the real cause of the UKs mess is firmly at Cameron and Osborne and they're gcse level idea of politics.
 


I found this interview fascinating. I recommend watching it.

I found it incredible the lengths Piers Morgan went to, to try and justify Israel's response. Bassem Youssef explained it so clearly that October 7th is not an isolated attack. It didn't come from nowhere. It was an attack that result of 75 years worth of hate and fighting. The Europeans and the West have to take some of the blame. Hamas have to take some of the blame and so does Israel and especially the likes of Netanyahu who has openly boasted about funding Hamas. Bassem consistently tries to explain that this is a complex issue that is far bigger than October 7th. October 7th is the just the last act in a cycle of violence and hatred that has been building since 1948, or possibly even earlier. See this link (While I will not take what Roald Dahl wrote as 100% factually accurate, the suggestion is certainly that the Jewish refugees in Palestine at the time had no intention of sharing the land. It ended up that Israel was gifted the land by Britain and France, but regardless the implication is certainly that Israel will replace Palestine. I wonder how British people would react if they heard Syrian refugees for example saying that they will not join Britain, but have their own country here.)

However, purely in relation to the current conflict, Morgan himself said there is a moral quandary. Is Israel's response proportionate? However, he then spends the rest of the interview almost completely ignoring Israel's actions and giving lip service answers that yes Israel is wrong, but then goes back to focusing purely on October 7th and if the Israeli response is justified. He repeatedly asks Bassem what else could Israel do, ignoring the fact that Bassem explains that the Israeli government and Netanyahu wanted this all along. They may not have wanted the raid to happen as it did, but they definitely wanted a reason to invade Gaza and continue their expansion of Israel.

Morgan is also happy to flip between Hamas as a legal authority or a terrorist group. In terms of October 7th they are a terrorist group, but in terms of discussing peace they are the legal authority in Palestine. Either they are a terrorist group or they are the legal authority in Gaza. Edit: (Also slightly off-topic, but a video highlighting how the term terrorist is very subjective and that if Israel has the right to defend it's people then doesn't Hamas have the right to defend it's people? ) This is a war and if Hamas is the legal authority of the Palestinians in Gaza then their actions are not terrorism but war crimes. Yet this is the same crime that Israel is also guilty of and while many in the West, especially those in power, are happy to condemn Hamas, they are not issuing the same level on condemnation on Israel if at all. Now while I accept that reported figures may not be accurate. Is over 10,000 people killed justifiable for 1,200 killed. Further, since 2008 alone, there have been 6542 Palestinian fatalities, 3937 of them civilian with over 155,000 injuries compared with 309 Israeli fatalities, 177 of them civilian and 6331 injuries. If over 10,000 people killed is justifiable for 1,200, then is 1,200 justifiable for 3937 casualties?

Link to data: https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

The biggest point Morgan missed though was about power. There is an incredible power imbalance. Israel's military is far superior to Hamas. Israel have the power to cut water, electricity, gas, internet etc... to Gaza. Palestine and Gaza have none of this power. Yet for some reason Hamas and Gaza are held to account more than Israel. The West, like it did terrorist bombings here after invading Iraq and Afghanistan, completely ignore that you cannot attack, beat, abuse, kill etc... a group of people and then act outraged when they fight back. It doesn't justify their actions, but it should not be a surprise either and you can't maintain the moral high ground when you have helped to sow and tend these seeds of hatred. Israel has been pushing and squeezing Gaza and Palestinians for decades and they wanted Hamas and the Palestinians to fight back so they have their excuse to either kill them or force them into Egypt. The only surprise was the scale of the attack on October 7th. Not that it happened.

Morgan was wrong as well about that fact that there could be peace. For me Northern Ireland was not the same. There was a relative power balance there and certainly not the overwhelming and crushing power balance that Israel has. Both Catholic and Protestant communities were losing family regularly and it was in both sides interests to reach a deal when leaders could be found who were willing to listen. It's different with Israel and Palestine. Israel has nothing to gain from seeking peace and has been clearly shown their current leaders have actively continued and supported the conflict. It doesn't matter if a leader open to peace came along because the Israeli's as a country wouldn't want it.

My final point is this. What Hamas did was terrible, but if you continue to believe that it is worse than what Israel have been doing for decades and are currently doing and that Israel is justified in it's response then you are complicit with Israel. Only outside intervention, especially by the US will stop Israel and actually possibly lead to a peaceful resolve. However, as long as the US and others continue to give them a blank cheque to retaliate, then the fighting won't stop until Gaza and the West Bank don't exist.
 
www.yahoo.com

Donald Trump loses bid for mistrial in New York civil fraud case

NEW YORK (Reuters) -A New York judge on Friday rejected Donald Trump's bid for a mistrial in state Attorney General Letitia James' civil fraud lawsuit over the former U.S. president's family real estate company's business practices. Justice Arthur Engoron of the New York state court in...
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com
 
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Tweet caption seems a bit of an overreaction, but I've not really been following what the claims are

BBCs coverage of the whole situation has been pretty terrible though, tbf
Like this a couple of days ago
www.yahoo.com

BBC Apologizes After Reporting That Israeli Troops Targeted Medics During Raid On Gaza Hospital

The BBC has apologized for reporting that Israeli troops targeted medics and Arab speakers during a raid on Gaza’s main hospital, Al-Shifa. A BBC newsreader misquoted a Reuters report on the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) operation, telling viewers that soldiers were “targeting people, including...
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com

Plus reporting Hamas propaganda as fact with the hospital explosion a couple of weeks ago

Hard to find genuine reporting out of the area ATM
 
Gavin said:
Click to expand...

Considering the extent to which Israel have been claiming the hospital was part of a huge network, having 2 AK47's and other military bit and bobs (which are literally all over the place in Gaza), it really does look like Israel are making **** up at the moment to justify starving a hospital of resources. Maybe they will release further evidence but I doubt it, you'd think a mass tunnel network would not take this long to find and they would release footage the second the found it to vindicate themselves.

Guns and other equipment can easily be planted, a sprawling tunnel network full of equipment to coordinate a campaign cannot.
 
Reiser99 said:


I found this interview fascinating. I recommend watching it.

I found it incredible the lengths Piers Morgan went to, to try and justify Israel's response. Bassem Youssef explained it so clearly that October 7th is not an isolated attack. It didn't come from nowhere. It was an attack that result of 75 years worth of hate and fighting. The Europeans and the West have to take some of the blame. Hamas have to take some of the blame and so does Israel and especially the likes of Netanyahu who has openly boasted about funding Hamas. Bassem consistently tries to explain that this is a complex issue that is far bigger than October 7th. October 7th is the just the last act in a cycle of violence and hatred that has been building since 1948, or possibly even earlier. See this link (While I will not take what Roald Dahl wrote as 100% factually accurate, the suggestion is certainly that the Jewish refugees in Palestine at the time had no intention of sharing the land. It ended up that Israel was gifted the land by Britain and France, but regardless the implication is certainly that Israel will replace Palestine. I wonder how British people would react if they heard Syrian refugees for example saying that they will not join Britain, but have their own country here.)

However, purely in relation to the current conflict, Morgan himself said there is a moral quandary. Is Israel's response proportionate? However, he then spends the rest of the interview almost completely ignoring Israel's actions and giving lip service answers that yes Israel is wrong, but then goes back to focusing purely on October 7th and if the Israeli response is justified. He repeatedly asks Bassem what else could Israel do, ignoring the fact that Bassem explains that the Israeli government and Netanyahu wanted this all along. They may not have wanted the raid to happen as it did, but they definitely wanted a reason to invade Gaza and continue their expansion of Israel.

Morgan is also happy to flip between Hamas as a legal authority or a terrorist group. In terms of October 7th they are a terrorist group, but in terms of discussing peace they are the legal authority in Palestine. Either they are a terrorist group or they are the legal authority in Gaza. Edit: (Also slightly off-topic, but a video highlighting how the term terrorist is very subjective and that if Israel has the right to defend it's people then doesn't Hamas have the right to defend it's people? ) This is a war and if Hamas is the legal authority of the Palestinians in Gaza then their actions are not terrorism but war crimes. Yet this is the same crime that Israel is also guilty of and while many in the West, especially those in power, are happy to condemn Hamas, they are not issuing the same level on condemnation on Israel if at all. Now while I accept that reported figures may not be accurate. Is over 10,000 people killed justifiable for 1,200 killed. Further, since 2008 alone, there have been 6542 Palestinian fatalities, 3937 of them civilian with over 155,000 injuries compared with 309 Israeli fatalities, 177 of them civilian and 6331 injuries. If over 10,000 people killed is justifiable for 1,200, then is 1,200 justifiable for 3937 casualties?

Link to data: https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

The biggest point Morgan missed though was about power. There is an incredible power imbalance. Israel's military is far superior to Hamas. Israel have the power to cut water, electricity, gas, internet etc... to Gaza. Palestine and Gaza have none of this power. Yet for some reason Hamas and Gaza are held to account more than Israel. The West, like it did terrorist bombings here after invading Iraq and Afghanistan, completely ignore that you cannot attack, beat, abuse, kill etc... a group of people and then act outraged when they fight back. It doesn't justify their actions, but it should not be a surprise either and you can't maintain the moral high ground when you have helped to sow and tend these seeds of hatred. Israel has been pushing and squeezing Gaza and Palestinians for decades and they wanted Hamas and the Palestinians to fight back so they have their excuse to either kill them or force them into Egypt. The only surprise was the scale of the attack on October 7th. Not that it happened.

Morgan was wrong as well about that fact that there could be peace. For me Northern Ireland was not the same. There was a relative power balance there and certainly not the overwhelming and crushing power balance that Israel has. Both Catholic and Protestant communities were losing family regularly and it was in both sides interests to reach a deal when leaders could be found who were willing to listen. It's different with Israel and Palestine. Israel has nothing to gain from seeking peace and has been clearly shown their current leaders have actively continued and supported the conflict. It doesn't matter if a leader open to peace came along because the Israeli's as a country wouldn't want it.

My final point is this. What Hamas did was terrible, but if you continue to believe that it is worse than what Israel have been doing for decades and are currently doing and that Israel is justified in it's response then you are complicit with Israel. Only outside intervention, especially by the US will stop Israel and actually possibly lead to a peaceful resolve. However, as long as the US and others continue to give them a blank cheque to retaliate, then the fighting won't stop until Gaza and the West Bank don't exist.
Click to expand...

I think you've missed a couple of key points. You can't not look at the problems caused prior to 1948. The massive anti-senitism in Europe and the holocaust. It is common to bring up the past 75 years from a Palestinian point of view but not acknowledge or offer what would have been a solution to the plight of 'jewish' people after 1945. Other than wander around europe and hope nobody attempts to exterminate them again. Several of Israels neighbour have also fought and attacked Isreal since 1948, into the 1950's Egypt expelled and took the homes of nearly all the jews that lived there.

It can be an arguement to say well after being treated so badly after 75 years what did Israel expect. Yes the treatment of the Palestinian people has been appaling. The jews have have been treated badly for 100's of years and after commiting a massacre of the most amount of jews since the 2nd World War what did Hamas expect the reaction to be. They raped, kidnapped and murdered over a 1000 people. Recording elements of it on go-pro. It's great saying what Israel shouldn't do but nobody is saying what they should have done? I believe Hamas hoped Iran, Lebanon and Syria would become involved unfortunately there allies realised it wouldn't be worth the escalation.

There is also a religious element to this war with the stated aims of Hamas well known. If Israel do not want peace, neither do Hamas, they certainly do not want a peaceful relationship with Israel to coexist as friendly neighbours.

The Troubles are not comparible the IRA initially wanted a united Ireland even to this day they never achieved that goal. There certainly wasn't a power balance. Also the atrocities never compared to a one single day attack like Oct 7th. Dispite attacks on the mainland UK the British were never going to invade the republic.

If the Israel can't retaliate what other options do they have? What they are now doing is wrong, totaly. Yet equaly doing nothing wasn't an option either. No country on earth would not have retaliated if a thousand of it's citizens were murdered in one day.

My view is both sides are murdering scum bags at the moment nobody has the moral high ground. I want peace for both sides but am not going to favour once sides views over the others. You have religions, historic grievances and atrocious crimes in both history and now against both sides. Things that are so ingrained in the very fabric of jews and Palestinians make this a near impossible situation to resolve.
 
Welsh Exile said:
To be honest, at this point, I think history is almost irrelevant. We're talking almost 100 years of stuff going on with both sides doing bad ****. Think the conversation should be much more Centered around what are we going to do now, how do we resolve this problem.
Click to expand...

Fully agree. Times have changed and things are different now. Look at the relationship between the US and Japan - rock solid. That's in spite of Hiroshima. There are many other similar examples. The situation in Israel/Gaza/West Bank is purely down to a complete failure in leadership on both sides - particularly Israel who (as the more dominant territory and a supposed advocate of western values) have never expressed a desire to agree to a two state solution which has been supported by most of the rest of the world - including the US.

Things won't change until the leadership on both sides stops brainwashing their people to hate the other side from the moment they're born and starts a major push for long term peace. The sad reality is that Hamas and people like Netanyahu value power more than peace.
 
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