A Political Thread pt. 2

[Reiser99]

The last paragraph of this is the most important I think. It speaks to how you win referendums and elections - they are simply not won on philosophising and academic political analysis, despite how beneficial that may be.

I think that the remain and brexit camps were equally as guilty as each other in terms of mistruths and fear mongering because both were aware that campaigns are won on exactly that - that doesn't however mean that they weren't having more fruitful and complex discussions, debates in private and that those arguments didn't exist at all.

Few of the people in the pressure groups / think tanks that I have debated brexit with have ever resorted to "nationalistic sabre rattling" but that is simply because of the setting - if those same people are on the campaign trail then they would likely take that very tact simply because it is effective.

There is so much nuance to a question like EU membership, beyond anything that will ever be properly covered in something like a referendum. If you take that as an unfortunate reality then you have to decide whether it is worth having referendums often devoid of nuance Vs not having them at all and losing that direct democracy.

This is probably one of the most interesting issues around the whole affair, which is that the decision was made by a clearly uninformed electorate that was being lied to and misled by both sides and has been subject to right wing media propaganda for close to 20 odd years if not more.

The average person had no real clue about the issues or the consequences, hell most of the politicians would not have predicted the farce that has happened in between. For the majority of people this was a vote purely on ideological grounds. Do we want to be part of a multi-national organisation or not? We chose not and my personal opinion is that this was from a self-inflated ego that Britain is the incredible country that can do whatever it wants. For me the reality is that we are nation that has been in decline for the last 60 years and we are trying to stay relevant in a modern world by trying to rekindle past glories and go backwards in time. From now on we only have ourselves to blame, though I'm sure that won't stop the politicians or papers scapegoating anyone they can.

 

[The Seeker]

 

[The Seeker]

How The Grinch Stole Christmas From A 7 Year Old.

 

[The Seeker]

 

[Reiser99]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55474148

Starmer facing revolt from Labour MP's after deciding to support the deal. It's an interesting conundrum. In the unlikely event that labour don't support it and enough Tory MPs rebel then it would leave the country facing no deal which would make it worse off and he could get the blame. However, that's very unlikely to happen so he could have decided to vote no, knowing that it will probably go through anyway. Instead he chose to say, I will vote for this deal as it's in the national interest, but it's a crap deal and the blame is entirely with the Tories. However, will voters see it that way?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah it's an awkward position

I guess abstaining is the best option? Or just letting the MPs vote how they want, no whip.
Leaving with this deal is better than leaving with no deal and a vote against - at this stage - is a vote for no deal.

Also: the votes going to pass regardless, Tories have the majority and labour have next to no say in it (bar mass Tory revolt). Whipping them to vote a certain way is just going get labour more negative press coverage as it will create some in fighting.

 

[Reiser99]

I get his position of saying we'll back a deal because it's better than no deal, but the responsibility is all on the Tories, it does make sense. However it's too clever a position for the average voter, who in 3 years time will just say they voted for the deal, so they can't complain.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

It's staggering how in a deal made purely by the Tories over years of Tory fuckups and incompetence off the back of a referendum by the Tories and overwhelmingly supported by Tories that the actions of a Labour leader, which in the grand scheme of things are highly unlikely have any affect, are even worth getting worked up about at all.

Labour just really can't get any perspective... Every time they have a chance to position themselves well, it seems half the party go mad and suddenly decide to attack their own until the chance has gone. I'm an ardent remainer but come on, let the deal pass to avoid a no deal, say you've accepted it for the good of the country and then if it goes well, say you supported it and if it goes badly say it was all done by the Tories. This should be a win-win but it seems Labour are once again determined to destroy their own position.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

 

[Zootalaws]

Definitely the worst ever.

An ignorant, grifting, self-promoter without an ounce of compassion.

Massive wealth inequality made even worse, at the worst possible time.

Its hard to find a single positive thing he's achieved in office.

 

[ncurd]

It's staggering how in a deal made purely by the Tories over years of Tory fuckups and incompetence off the back of a referendum by the Tories and overwhelmingly supported by Tories that the actions of a Labour leader, which in the grand scheme of things are highly unlikely have any affect, are even worth getting worked up about at all.

Labour just really can't get any perspective... Every time they have a chance to position themselves well, it seems half the party go mad and suddenly decide to attack their own until the chance has gone. I'm an ardent remainer but come on, let the deal pass to avoid a no deal, say you've accepted it for the good of the country and then if it goes well, say you supported it and if it goes badly say it was all done by the Tories. This should be a win-win but it seems Labour are once again determined to destroy their own position.

It's a bit mad following remainers on twitter, I have literally no idea what they are fighting for. I mean we lost a year ago, this year was about ensuring no deal didn't occur and fighting for that. Now they are against it because I have no idea why. I mean it's a **** deal compared to what we use to have but we we aren't getting anything better at this present time.

Starmer was in a lose lose lose situation on this one. Whatever policy position he took one section of his base would rip him to shreds. Not to mention the Momentum idiots who take object to any position he takes. This one probably helps him up North with Brexit voters whilst most remainers sort of know this doesn't matter.



Main thing to come out of this past week is the deal only lasts 5 years before it has to be renegotiated. So that's what the next election will be fought over in some regards (Brexit and Europe are not going away) and I suppose that's when he can properly set his stall on this matter. For now for me it's about avoiding no deal.


Also by supporting it it.keans the ERG and DUP can be ignored. I also don't think it will be noose for Starmer if it isn't for Tories.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The USA has had presidents who are stupid, corrupt, lying, incompetent, narcissistic, heartless, partisan and without principles before but I don't think they've ever had one president who was all of them before Trump.

The amount of damage he has done is staggering. Again it's yet another case of the things the right said about Obama being true for Trump. They said Obama would be viewed as one of the worst presidents ever, Trump will take that ***le. The complete lack of introspection and pure hypocrisy on the right is infuriating.

 

[Gavin]

 

[The Seeker]

 

[The Seeker]

 

[ncurd]

Debate going on in commons over the deal (it will pass)

Johnson came out with some corkers (I reccomend following Dunt on this kind of thing in general)

 

[ncurd]

Starmer now up basically positioning it's this or no deal. If your voting against or abstaining your essentially hoping other people will save you from your votes unless you actually want no deal. He's correct especially voting against which SNP and LDs (I'm glad I left no idea what they are trying to achieve voting against) are doing, abstaining could still of been a choice...I think but not one I'm going to hold against people calling it a terrible deal but forced into a corner.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Fake Nobel Peace prize.

 

[The Seeker]

 

[Gavin]

Brexit: Gibraltar gets UK-Spain deal to keep open border

The deal - yet to become a treaty - enables Spanish workers to continue entering Gibraltar freely.

www.bbc.co.uk

To avoid a hard border, they have agreed that Gibraltar will join the EU's Schengen zone and follow other EU rules, while remaining part of the UK.

So that's two UK territories following EU rules, Gibraltar and Northern Ireland, post-Brexit.

#takebackcontrol