A Political Thread pt. 2

[McTallshort]

Turkey extorting Finland and Sweden in exchange for them joining NATO. Tbh under Erdogan, Turkey isn't far removed from Russia. I'd say kick out Turkey in exchange for Sweden and Finland.

Kick out one of the largest armies and the one nation that has complete control of what goes in and out of the Black sea? Special kind of stupid that

 

[McTallshort]

A more detailed article basically backing up the Russia on ex-colonel's pessimism. It doesn't say it in the article but I had no idea howitzers could fire artillery 25 miles away. My mind can't really compute that. Maybe Ukraine doesn't need jets after all.

Analysis: Putin takes Mariupol, but wider Donbas victory slipping from reach

Even as the Kremlin prepares to take full control of the ruins of Mariupol city, it faces the growing prospect of defeat in its bid to conquer all of Ukraine's eastern Donbas because its badly mauled forces lack the manpower for significant advances.

www.reuters.com

Certain artillery can which is why the Ukrainian army was so desperate to get hold of western 155mm. They can shell the Russians now without facing counter fire which is massive. Also the Ukrainian forces have pushed to the Russian border in the NW and are now able to shell Russian trains moving war materials to the Donbass

 

[McTallshort]

This, Tukey is more likely to be a thorn in NATOs side than an aid. However Erdogan, being the vindictive **** he is, will almost certainly look to ally with whoever NATO opposes if kicked out just to get revenge. I think the rules on countries joining NATO need to change and let Turkey leave of their own accord if they don't like it. That country is marching down the route to dictatorship and economic collapse as it is.

If Turkey plays silly buggers and for whatever reason can't be kicked out or the rules change, NATO members should just unilaterally guarantee the protection of Finland and Sweden to bypass that. Maybe even create a new status for countries in which they aren't formally a member of NATO but will receive protection, just to get around Turkey being stupid. Theoretically you only need 1 NATO member with forces in Finland that the Russians could attack to trigger article 5 and bring in the rest of the alliance.

Really?! During the cold war NATO had complete command of what went in and out of the Black sea. Turkey allowed the American's to put strategic nukes on their soil which triggered the cuban missile crisis, they have consistently provided the largest army on the European mainland and been a strategic enemy of Russia since both countries existed. You want to get rid of someone? Try Germany

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Certain artillery can which is why the Ukrainian army was so desperate to get hold of western 155mm. They can shell the Russians now without facing counter fire which is massive. Also the Ukrainian forces have pushed to the Russian border in the NW and are now able to shell Russian trains moving war materials to the Donbass

I know Italy has supplied some howitzers that have an inbuilt engine, so if you get information about approaching enemy jets you can drive your giant cannon towards some cover. If you combine that with superior range I imagine that the Ukrainian artillery will be almost untouchable.

The Kremlin is now making repeated complaints that Ukraine is withdrawing from peace talks. Now I'm no expert in psychology but saying Finland giving you a 1000 mile land border with NATO is 'fine' and complaining Ukraine won't talk to you isn't exactly oozing confidence. The past week has definitely started to make my position shift towards more optimism.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Really?! During the cold war NATO had complete command of what went in and out of the Black sea. Turkey allowed the American's to put strategic nukes on their soil which triggered the cuban missile crisis, they have consistently provided the largest army on the European mainland and been a strategic enemy of Russia since both countries existed. You want to get rid of someone? Try Germany

Their leader is a complete knob though. But as you say, Black sea and also Turkey is getting paid moolah to keep middle eastern refugees from passing through to the EU, so they are kind of indispensable politically (we only like white Ukrainian refugees after all). Even if he does carry out his veto, as stated above, there'll just be parallel, identical arrangements that exclude Turkey.

And nice mention of the Cuban Missile crisis, which i believe the Soviet union 'lost' by said missiles being withdrawn from Turkey (also known as achieving your objective).

 

[McTallshort]

I know Italy has supplied some howitzers that have an inbuilt engine, so if you get information about approaching enemy jets you can drive your giant cannon towards some cover. If you combine that with superior range I imagine that the Ukrainian artillery will be almost untouchable.

The Kremlin is now making repeated complaints that Ukraine is withdrawing from peace talks. Now I'm no expert in psychology but saying Finland giving you a 1000 mile land border with NATO is 'fine' and complaining Ukraine won't talk to you isn't exactly oozing confidence. The past week has definitely started to make my position shift towards more optimism.

You don't negotiate unless you are in a position of strength. If the next few months go to plan then the Ukrainian army will be carrying out a number of counter attacks that could see the Russians in complete retreat. That's when the Ukrainians should negotiate

 

[McTallshort]

Their leader is a complete knob though. But as you say, Black sea and also Turkey is getting paid moolah to keep middle eastern refugees from passing through to the EU, so they are kind of indispensable politically (we only like white Ukrainian refugees after all). Even if he does carry out his veto, as stated above, there'll just be parallel, identical arrangements that exclude Turkey.

And nice mention of the Cuban Missile crisis, which i believe the Soviet union 'lost' by said missiles being withdrawn from Turkey (also known as achieving your objective).

Yeah but so is ours and the leaders of Hungary, France and Germany hardly push for the good of NATO but at least the Turks contribute some strategic advantage

 

[Yulia]

Yes, there is "some" strategic advantage in Dardanelles/Bosporus and almost a total control of the Black sea

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Really?! During the cold war NATO had complete command of what went in and out of the Black sea. Turkey allowed the American's to put strategic nukes on their soil which triggered the cuban missile crisis, they have consistently provided the largest army on the European mainland and been a strategic enemy of Russia since both countries existed. You want to get rid of someone? Try Germany

Erdogan and Turkey are far removed from the country in NATO in the Cold war. However, if you read my comment, I advocated for changing the rules on letting countries IN rather than kicking Turkey out and, if Turkey decide to leave as a result of them not being able veto Sweden and Finland joining then maybe they aren't the most reliable ally anyway? Turkish-Russian conflict goes all the way back to the Ottomans and Tsars but the current crop are far removed from those people, they are dictators looking to solidify their regimes. Dictators have a habit of turning on their allies as soon as it becomes politically expedient. How do you feel about having an ally who could turn their back on you as soon as it benefitted them?

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Kick out one of the largest armies and the one nation that has complete control of what goes in and out of the Black sea? Special kind of stupid that

yeah Turkey might have an autocrat in charge but at least they are valuable and committed. I saw a quote that Sweden doesn't want permanent bases or nuclear weapons in their territory. Well if you're gonna be in NATO, you might have to give up some autonomy when it comes to military decisions. *Aware I sound somewhat like Trump* They want the protection of NATO but what are they willing to contribute. I don't mind the US doing the lion's share of the work but if Sweden wants protection they will have to make some sacrifices.

 

[McTallshort]

Erdogan and Turkey are far removed from the country in NATO in the Cold war. However, if you read my comment, I advocated for changing the rules on letting countries IN rather than kicking Turkey out and, if Turkey decide to leave as a result of them not being able veto Sweden and Finland joining then maybe they aren't the most reliable ally anyway? Turkish-Russian conflict goes all the way back to the Ottomans and Tsars but the current crop are far removed from those people, they are dictators looking to solidify their regimes. Dictators have a habit of turning on their allies as soon as it becomes politically expedient. How do you feel about having an ally who could turn their back on you as soon as it benefitted them?

Leaders come and go. Erdogan isn't the first strong man type leader in NATO and Turkey has always been possibly the best strategic nation in NATO. I would rather have Turkey than Germany or frankly France who only seem concerned with keeping things normal and not upsetting the Russians.

Also Turkey has taken this stance due to Sweden's attitude to certain terrorist groups like the PPK. This is domestic politics that will not stop Sweden's or Finland's joining of NATO

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Inflation at 9%.

 

[General Melchett]

yeah Turkey might have an autocrat in charge but at least they are valuable and committed. I saw a quote that Sweden doesn't want permanent bases or nuclear weapons in their territory. Well if you're gonna be in NATO, you might have to give up some autonomy when it comes to military decisions. *Aware I sound somewhat like Trump* They want the protection of NATO but what are they willing to contribute. I don't mind the US doing the lion's share of the work but if Sweden wants protection they will have to make some sacrifices.

I think 2% of GDP is the price/required contribution of NATO membership and Trump was making the case that too many NATO members weren't contributing their share. TBF this was about the only thing he had a point on.

 

[ncurd]

Inflation at 9%.

Highest in my lifetime and we have government who appears to be doing nothing about it.

 

[ncurd]

"Putin to blame" despite the fact the energy costs were beginning to spiral long before Ukraine was an issue.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

 

[Which Tyler]

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It literally never ends

 

[The Seeker]

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

a kid I started law school with; who then quit law school after only showing up one day a week and then re-enrolled the next year won his primary is now going to become a congressman.

The bar for republicans is so incredibly low.