2nd QF - Stormers vs Brumbies

[SomeOke]

If the player drain continues and SA teams just keep getting worse and worse, I think ARU and NZRU should break off from them. Although one benefit of touring SA with the franchise teams is the new All Blacks get a taste of what SA test venues are like.

Poor showing from the SA teams this year, I can't see it getting any better as well with their selection policy in place. But who knows, there's a large amount of players leaving NZ franchises, so it could be a lot tighter next season.

This is where it's heading I'm afraid, I can see SA just being a feeder for Europe in the near future. If we look at soccer as an example, poor countries with lots of talent, that can't compete with overseas wages tend to have inconsequential local leagues but strong international teams. i.e Argentina, Brazil, Portugal even the Netherlands.

However it is a bit to early to call time of death for local SA rugby, many South Africans believe it has to do with the coaching systems more than anything else, which are changing next year. Basically we need a season or two more before we can be certain that this is a persistent problem, or just a temporary trend.

 

[nickdnz]

NZ breaking away from South Africa to have their own competition with Oz would literally be the dumbest move. However poorly South Africa perform in SR (and I will mention that on the whole they did better than Australia...) - the NZRU will always want SA's TV revenue.

Not only that, but we would have to carry Australia. South Africans love rugby - Australian's love rugby when they're the best in the world (so basically never).

The Boks selection policy is a joke. No getting around it. I said they shouldn't have selected overseas players when they were initially considering it - and HM has been dumb enough not only to select overseas players, but to favor old players when there were similarly talented new players in SR.

There has literally been no incentive given to stay in SA.

 

[RoosTah]

Australian's love rugby when they're the best in the world (so basically never).

Success helps popularity for any sport, but the biggest problem with Rugby in this country is much more to do with poor management and the lack of passionately supported national comp.

If club rugby in Sydney had taken the route of the AFL and NRL in the 80s and started to expand its footprint nationally then things would be quite different, but the obsession with amateurism and a general insularity among the core fan base has stunted the growth of the game.

On top of that, the decision to focus on cable TV for Super Rugby telecasts has reduced the potential reach of the game among much of the country. But even then, even if we'd had FTA Super Rugby the South African time zone undermines the amount of prime time exposure games can get.

I know it's fashionable in NZ and SA to bag Australian rugby as being only supported when the Wallabies are doing well, but frankly neither of you have anything like the challenges we face. Not even close in fact. Rugby was doing well here at a time when the Wallabies were strong, but what your comment ignores is that period also happened to be when Rugby League was tearing itself apart with the Super League War and soccer was still a joke.

Now the NRL is a billion dollar sport, the AFL has increased its presence in both NSW and Qld and soccer has a proper national comp and is better organized than Union.

On a per capita basis Australia is the most competitive football market in the world by a fair margin, and rugby needs to fight bloody hard for its share of the pie, but that doesn't mean people should just give up on it, as in spite of it all we still manage to do pretty well.

 

[InsaneAsylum]

Success helps popularity for any sport, but the biggest problem with Rugby in this country is much more to do with poor management and the lack of passionately supported national comp.

If club rugby in Sydney had taken the route of the AFL and NRL in the 80s and started to expand its footprint nationally then things would be quite different, but the obsession with amateurism and a general insularity among the core fan base has stunted the growth of the game.

On top of that, the decision to focus on cable TV for Super Rugby telecasts has reduced the potential reach of the game among much of the country. But even then, even if we'd had FTA Super Rugby the South African time zone undermines the amount of prime time exposure games can get.

I know it's fashionable in NZ and SA to bag Australian rugby as being only supported when the Wallabies are doing well, but frankly neither of you have anything like the challenges we face. Not even close in fact. Rugby was doing well here at a time when the Wallabies were strong, but what your comment ignores is that period also happened to be when Rugby League was tearing itself apart with the Super League War and soccer was still a joke.

Now the NRL is a billion dollar sport, the AFL has increased its presence in both NSW and Qld and soccer has a proper national comp and is better organized than Union.

On a per capita basis Australia is the most competitive football market in the world by a fair margin, and rugby needs to fight bloody hard for its share of the pie, but that doesn't mean people should just give up on it, as in spite of it all we still manage to do pretty well.

Spot on, tired of outsiders hating on Australian Rugby. Coming from Melbourne, this forum and twitter is the only place I discuss Rugby... not many "real people" around here who know anything about the sport apart from "they stick their head up eachothers ass don't they"

 

[RoosTah]

Spot on, tired of outsiders hating on Australian Rugby. Coming from Melbourne, this forum and twitter is the only place I discuss Rugby... not many "real people" around here who know anything about the sport apart from "they stick their head up eachothers ass don't they"

They just don't get it really. Unless kiwis or saffas have lived in a place like Sydney or Melbourne, it's hard for them to appreciate how difficult it is for rugby to get air time here.

Melbournians in particular are probably the most parochial about their local code above all others. I visit Melbourne with work pretty well every other month, and I really like the place, but man I get tired of all the silly insecure jibes at Sydney over things like sport or culture... I've stopped telling people I'm from Sydney when I can avoid it, because it's just so incessant.

With that in mind, it was actually interesting to see 91k turn out for Origin last week - with the amount they bag League and Union, I honestly wasn't expecting many to turn up (granted 25k came from interstate). That said, they managed to get more to a pointless game of soccer against some pointless random pommy club and they seem to love soccer as much as the AFL now, so I'm not sure what to make of it.

What's your reading of Rugby in Melbourne though mate? Reckon it's growing?

 

[Kiwi_]

I grew up watching the AB's often lose to the Australians. Gregan, Eels, Larkham, Latham, Mortlock, Burke, Roff even a little later George Smith and Giteau, these were all players to be proud of. At one point it felt like we would never be better than the Wallabies again. I've enjoyed their some what demise and AB domination, but now I really miss the genuine strong rivalry we used to have. Last year was a lot tighter and the Wallabies gave it their all, but their other results and performances still showed how far behind they still are. I want to see Australian rugby as strong as it once was, there's no satisfaction anymore. Beating the Wallaby side of 1999 felt like such a sweet victory when ever it occurred, especially that 2000 amazing match. I miss those days of quality Aussie rugby.

I think the players attitude is a huge factor as well. Guys like O'Connor and Cooper have no heart. Even Beale. The talents there, just not the team ethos. They seem stroppy and lacking in belief and unity. Cheika has a decent squad to work with. It's nothing outstanding, but they can pack a punch. The heart of the Brumbies and Warratahs is good, with a smattering of players from the other franchises. I wouldn't write them off this RWC and I really want to see them get out off their group.

 

[RoosTah]

I want to see Australian rugby as strong as it once was, there's no satisfaction anymore. Beating the Wallaby side of 1999 felt like such a sweet victory when ever it occurred, especially that 2000 amazing match. I miss those days of quality Aussie rugby.

Interestingly we're seeing the reverse of that in Rugby League now. Beating the Kiwis was boring for a long time because the game was so poorly developed there, but with NZ now providing more talent to the NRL than Queensland, the Kiwis have become genuine contenders, and so interest in the games against them is increasing apace. I know I never used to enjoy watching us beat you guys, but recently wins over the Kiwis are actually pretty satisfying - not Origin satisfying because we don't hate NZ, but satisfying all the same.

I think the players attitude is a huge factor as well. Guys like O'Connor and Cooper have no heart. Even Beale. The talents there, just not the team ethos. They seem stroppy and lacking in belief and unity. Cheika has a decent squad to work with. It's nothing outstanding, but they can pack a punch. The heart of the Brumbies and Warratahs is good, with a smattering of players from the other franchises. I wouldn't write them off this RWC and I really want to see them get out off their group.

This definitely is a problem. There is a lot of heart with guys like Pocock and Moore in the forwards, but too much of the backline are lacking that passion and drive... to bring up the Origin analogy again, the Wallabies players always seem too in awe of the black clad opposition, and that's not a good starting point for winning games. What we need in the Wallabies is a character like Paul Gallen - a hard nosed brute who hates his opposition as much as he loves his state. Say what you will about him, along with Daley he's managed to inject much needed passion and ferocity into a side that was for a long time too in awe of their maroon opponents.

- - - Updated - - -

I want to see Australian rugby as strong as it once was, there's no satisfaction anymore. Beating the Wallaby side of 1999 felt like such a sweet victory when ever it occurred, especially that 2000 amazing match. I miss those days of quality Aussie rugby.

Interestingly we're seeing the reverse of that in Rugby League now. Beating the Kiwis was boring for a long time because the game was so poorly developed there, but with NZ now providing more talent to the NRL than Queensland, the Kiwis have become genuine contenders, and so interest in the games against them is increasing apace. I know I never used to enjoy watching us beat you guys, but recently wins over the Kiwis are actually pretty satisfying - not Origin satisfying because we don't hate NZ, but satisfying all the same.

I think the players attitude is a huge factor as well. Guys like O'Connor and Cooper have no heart. Even Beale. The talents there, just not the team ethos. They seem stroppy and lacking in belief and unity. Cheika has a decent squad to work with. It's nothing outstanding, but they can pack a punch. The heart of the Brumbies and Warratahs is good, with a smattering of players from the other franchises. I wouldn't write them off this RWC and I really want to see them get out off their group.

This definitely is a problem. There is a lot of heart with guys like Pocock and Moore in the forwards, but too much of the backline are lacking that passion and drive... to bring up the Origin analogy again, the Wallabies players always seem too in awe of the black clad opposition, and that's not a good starting point for winning games. What we need in the Wallabies is a character like Paul Gallen - a hard nosed brute who hates his opposition as much as he loves his state. Say what you will about him, along with Daley he's managed to inject much needed passion and ferocity into a side that was for a long time too in awe of their maroon opponents.

 

[nickdnz]

Look, my comment wasn't that Australian's don't have reasons to not support rugby - there are dozens of institutional failures in rugby in Australia without just blaming the fans. But it is simply terribly run and marketed - and so the only time where it generate excitement is when the Wallabies are winning. We saw a resurgence in 2010 after QLD Reds won the 2014 and the Wallabies won the Tri Nations. But then a few losses and it's over. My point was that there is no way in hell I would drop South Africa and just join Australia. There just isn't the ingrained love of union in Australia as there is in South Africa - nor the marketability.

New Zealand is no different when it comes to cricket, yeah you have some die hard fans, but the country doesn't really care until the Black Caps are really punching above their weight. Soon as they lose - no one cares again.

 

[Kiwi_]

Look, my comment wasn't that Australian's don't have reasons to not support rugby - there are dozens of institutional failures in rugby in Australia without just blaming the fans. But it is simply terribly run and marketed - and so the only time where it generate excitement is when the Wallabies are winning. We saw a resurgence in 2010 after QLD Reds won the 2014 and the Wallabies won the Tri Nations. But then a few losses and it's over. My point was that there is no way in hell I would drop South Africa and just join Australia. There just isn't the ingrained love of union in Australia as there is in South Africa - nor the marketability.

New Zealand is no different when it comes to cricket, yeah you have some die hard fans, but the country doesn't really care until the Black Caps are really punching above their weight. Soon as they lose - no one cares again.

It's true, New Zealanders are band wagon fans. You see the same in the Football, when the Phoenix do well, suddenly everyone is a fan, when the All Whites nearly make the WC, everyone is a fan.. It's kind of sickening really, no one supports you when you're down in NZ. Only team that might be exception to that rule is The Warriors. Even they get a lot of stick though.

The best example of this is the Blues, a city of 1.5m in a country where the sport is considered a religion and they can't even get 3000 fans to their game.

- - - Updated - - -

Look, my comment wasn't that Australian's don't have reasons to not support rugby - there are dozens of institutional failures in rugby in Australia without just blaming the fans. But it is simply terribly run and marketed - and so the only time where it generate excitement is when the Wallabies are winning. We saw a resurgence in 2010 after QLD Reds won the 2014 and the Wallabies won the Tri Nations. But then a few losses and it's over. My point was that there is no way in hell I would drop South Africa and just join Australia. There just isn't the ingrained love of union in Australia as there is in South Africa - nor the marketability.

New Zealand is no different when it comes to cricket, yeah you have some die hard fans, but the country doesn't really care until the Black Caps are really punching above their weight. Soon as they lose - no one cares again.

It's true, New Zealanders are band wagon fans. You see the same in the Football, when the Phoenix do well, suddenly everyone is a fan, when the All Whites nearly make the WC, everyone is a fan.. It's kind of sickening really, no one supports you when you're down in NZ. Only team that might be exception to that rule is The Warriors. Even they get a lot of stick though.

The best example of this is the Blues, a city of 1.5m in a country where the sport is considered a religion and they can't even get 3000 fans to their game.

 

[TRF_heineken]

NZ breaking away from South Africa to have their own competition with Oz would literally be the dumbest move. However poorly South Africa perform in SR (and I will mention that on the whole they did better than Australia...) - the NZRU will always want SA's TV revenue.

Not only that, but we would have to carry Australia. South Africans love rugby - Australian's love rugby when they're the best in the world (so basically never).

The Boks selection policy is a joke. No getting around it. I said they shouldn't have selected overseas players when they were initially considering it - and HM has been dumb enough not only to select overseas players, but to favor old players when there were similarly talented new players in SR.

There has literally been no incentive given to stay in SA.

hold on a bit.

HM has been only selecting overseas based players who was already Springboks.

The only incentive for players to stay was that if they haven't had a Springbok cap yet, they'd have to stay in SA to be selected.

And I will disagree with you as to him picking overseas based players over local players. I think he has tried to look local first and then look abroad. And which players did he pick over local players in the same position who aren't better/already a Bok?

And how many of these players went abroad AFTER HM was appointed as Bok coach. He had to basically start from scratch when he took over from PDV. He had to get 1 or 2 players in nearly every position for the Boks when he started. And look at the classy players that he has brought in. Eben Etzebeth, Handre Pollard, Willie Le Roux, Cobus Reinach, Marcel Coetzee, Frans Malherbe to name but a few.

There is no other rugby playing nation in the top 2 tiers that has the same disadvantages as South Africa. No outsider would ever really understand the problems we have if they haven't actually lived in SA and have lived with these disadvantages. Yet we are still quality, and a World Cup winning nation, 2nd overall on the Rankings and feared by many.

I have said before this year's tournament started that this would be a bad year for SA franchises, because the main focus is on the World Cup. It was also the first year that Springbok players were allowed to have a rest in the Super Rugby tournament. Something the franchises and the players never encountered before, It certainly took a toll on the teams and in many of those games, our teams lost without their Springbok players.

 

[RoosTah]

There is no other rugby playing nation in the top 2 tiers that has the same disadvantages as South Africa. No outsider would ever really understand the problems we have if they haven't actually lived in SA and have lived with these disadvantages. Yet we are still quality, and a World Cup winning nation, 2nd overall on the Rankings and feared by many.
.

How so? South Africa only has one challenge I can think of that we don't face and that's quotas, but then Union gets to benefit from being the only contact football code able to pay athletes in your country.

Australia has three contact football codes, and Rugby is by far the smallest and has the fewest incentives it can offer players, who are increasingly being poached both by the NRL and international Union clubs.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

How so? South Africa only has one challenge I can think of that we don't face and that's quotas, but then Union gets to benefit from being the only contact football code able to pay athletes in your country.

Australia has three contact football codes, and Rugby is by far the smallest and has the fewest incentives it can offer players, who are increasingly being poached both by the NRL and international Union clubs.

Political interference directly in the sport (quota players AND coaches AND teams- Kings)
Our internal (rugby and sprt in general) structures are perfectly setup for mismanagement and corrution
Indirect socio-political factors (AA, BEE and just the plain everyday pushing factors)
Economic factors; you can't compare the ever weakening Rand to the Aussie $ anymore
The sport isn't close to being the top sport in the country. In fact it's only the 3rd most supported.. though TBF has a very dedicated core nt insignificant and willing to pay.

I'm not trying to discount the issues Aussie rugby have to deal with but just saying we have our own as well as do every country.

 

[InsaneAsylum]

What's your reading of Rugby in Melbourne though mate? Reckon it's growing?

Slow going to be honest, hard to get new people on board.
we still get around 9000 to Rebels games and abour 12000 if a kiwi team is playing against them. Most Rebels members are ex pats.

Although this could change next year, we gained a lot this year with the Rebels being competitive. Another good season would help but winning all their home games would be a start.

 

[Car]

Slow going to be honest, hard to get new people on board.
we still get around 9000 to Rebels games and abour 12000 if a kiwi team is playing against them. Most Rebels members are ex pats.

Although this could change next year, we gained a lot this year with the Rebels being competitive. Another good season would help but winning all their home games would be a start.

How do you view it that the Rising will take their home games to different regions? Will that help spread the game or turn people away who would have gone otherwise?

It was kind of ironic that this year, home games weren't as good as in the past.

 

[Jaguares]

These users know about rugby:

 

[chippieolamus]

These users know about rugby:

I definitely didn't vote once the Brumbies were 3 tries up. Nope, not me.

 

[InsaneAsylum]

How do you view it that the Rising will take their home games to different regions? Will that help spread the game or turn people away who would have gone otherwise?

It was kind of ironic that this year, home games weren't as good as in the past.

Good question. I think it will limit the audience to be honest, I can understand the basis of their decision but it's not a great move in my opinion.

if you live in Melbourne's east the Holmsglen and Frankston games are accessible and on a weekend which may draw a crowd. Sadly it's an effort for me and the Geelong game would be most appropriate but it's a Thursday night, which means I can't get down there after work. I think the game that will draw the worst crowd will be morwell or wherever out in gippsland.

The Rebels played a practise game in Geelong a few years ago and only a few rusted on fans turned up, they do have a great refurbished stadium down there though, now with lights, so it's a good venue. i really hope people turn up.

ahh well I hope they prove me wrong, I don't want to see the NRC die off, I think it's great long term for developing our talent. it has already uncovered players like Debreczeni and Kerevi

 

[RoosTah]

Political interference directly in the sport (quota players AND coaches AND teams- Kings)
Our internal (rugby and sprt in general) structures are perfectly setup for mismanagement and corrution
Indirect socio-political factors (AA, BEE and just the plain everyday pushing factors)
Economic factors; you can't compare the ever weakening Rand to the Aussie $ anymore
The sport isn't close to being the top sport in the country. In fact it's only the 3rd most supported.. though TBF has a very dedicated core nt insignificant and willing to pay.

I'm not trying to discount the issues Aussie rugby have to deal with but just saying we have our own as well as do every country.

I suppose the challenges are quite different, but coming from Australia I look at South Africa's sports market and I see soccer, cricket and rugby. Rugby is very much in its own category and so will necessarily have less competition from potential sponsors and is able to develop talent with ease.

Here the professional pathways are much much stronger for Rugby league and Australian Football, which are also both contact oval ball sports, so in pure market terms Rugby has to fight harder.