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[2024 Six Nations] Italy vs England - 03/02/24

Do you expect a top class performance? Your deluded if you do.
I expect a better performance - I don't want to be excited about a worst ever result against a side we've never come close to losing to

If you're happy with mediocrity then that's fine, but I want England to be good again
 
I expect a better performance - I don't want to be excited about a worst ever result against a side we've never come close to losing to

If you're happy with mediocrity then that's fine, but I want England to be good again
Just to add...14 of that squad play for Benneton...so going down the same route as the Irish...cohesion best players in the country training together ever day...makes a huge difference.

Mediocrity? When have I ever said that? But it doesn't happen over night. And not when you lose key players.

And we've come close many times...under Jones.
 
Just to add...14 of that squad play for Benneton...so going down the same route as the Irish...cohesion best players in the country training together ever day...makes a huge difference.

Mediocrity? When have I ever said that? But it doesn't happen over night. And not when you lose key players.

And we've come close many times...under Jones.
Under Jones the closest we got to losing was 31-14 so sorry, that's wrong. There were a few in the 2010's that came close. The issue, as has been said, it this is off the back of a whole year of appalling England performances, literally breaking records for worst ever. Those of us complaining aren't expecting him to have turned the team into ***le contenders, and the constant jumping straight to this strawman is getting tiresome, but DO expect him to be bringing the team up a level. As it is, he's just added another 2 record worst performance stats to the list. If anything our attack has slightly improved and yet we still scored fewer tries than Italy. Our defence however has somehow managed to get even worse. We have had a problem with defending too narrow and not realigning fast enough for years and nobody is addressing it. How many times must sides breeze past our completely non-existent wide defence before someone works out we can't just keep leaving huge gaps out wide if the players aren't going to put the effort in to drift across when the attacking team goes wide. We aren't talking complex rugby here, these are the absolute basics.
 
Just to add...14 of that squad play for Benneton...so going down the same route as the Irish...cohesion best players in the country training together ever day...makes a huge difference.

Mediocrity? When have I ever said that? But it doesn't happen over night. And not when you lose key players.

And we've come close many times...under Jones.
I think it's a reasonable point. Some of the best teams have been based on a core of one club. For England it's historically been Leicester then Saracens. Nz with Crusaders etc, etc.

Of course that argument can some what be blown out the water with South Africa. I think the best measure is how many world class players start in your team. I can't remember who said it but to win a world cup you need four / five players who would get into a world XV. So that's arguably SA, Ireland, AB's and France.

I happily accept England are what they are with the players they have. At the moment they are probably 5th/6th in the world, mid-table six nations, and that seems about right.
 
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I expect a better performance - I don't want to be excited about a worst ever result against a side we've never come close to losing to

If you're happy with mediocrity then that's fine, but I want England to be good again
I'm not sure where this came from TBH?

I really don't think anyone is 'excited' and no-one is 'happy with mediocrity'.

We ALL want 'England to be good again'. I just think some are more accepting that we're at an early stage of that journey.
 
I'm not sure where this came from TBH?

I really don't think anyone is 'excited' and no-one is 'happy with mediocrity'.

We ALL want 'England to be good again'. I just think some are more accepting that we're at an early stage of that journey.
I'm a bit on the fence here but a journey implies having a destination and a route to getting there, I just don't think that route has been laid out for anyone to see. Its hard to see tangible progression given some of the selections, Ford has no place based on current form, clearly credit in the bank, I get this is somewhat forced by M smiths injury, in F Smith you have the form 10 give him some descent minutes. I have long been a Daly fan being a Wasps fan watching him come through, even I am now struggling to justify his selection, chopping and changing positions hasn't helped him but that's another story, we have plenty of other options for wing. steward was solid yesterday but still question his all around game, is really like to see what Furbank can do there, if he's proven he can't hack it at international at the second time of trying fine, his form this season and the extra attacking threat he carries warrants a second chance IMO.
 
I kind of agree but are you actually expecting to hear as a 'destination'?

The only thing that coaches come out with in that regard is usually a load of hot air with no real definition like 'We want to be the best team in the world' etc.

In a way it would be good to hear Borthwick come out and say something like 'we're targeting a minimum of 3 wins and our focus areas are improving our attack and building a mean (but clean) defence', but I'm not sure it would help anyone that much?
 
My biggest problem with Borthwick is that he will pick players out of position and out of form because he needs X caps in the side according to his formula
That makes no sense and suggests the premise of his gameplay is pretty much based on statistics.
Whilst much of the lack of development can't be apportioned to Jones..ie not developing SH, FH and Wingers. SB seemingly would sooner play someone out of position and out of form than play a younger specialist in their correct position.
Earl and Underhill fairly anonymous yesterday, however both have just come back from lengthy lay offs and will be better for the game.
 
We ALL want 'England to be good again'. I just think some are more accepting that we're at an early stage of that journey.

What and have nothing to moan about? Honestly, 2003 was the most miserable time to be an English fan with 91/2 not far behind only saved by a barmy decision to change tactics in the RWC final. 😀

I think people are fair to question SB. There was no new coach bounce when he came in and there have only been 2 decent performances on his watch - v Arg when we absolutely played what was in front of us and then the semi - while @dirty harry rates this achievement as somewhere ahead of the Welsh teams of the 70s, the reality was that it was a committed performance with conditions being a great leveller and maybe some unnecessary subs cost us a place in the final.

As for yesterday, we can only really put it into context at the tournament end. But before the tournament kicked off every man and his dog had Italy with the wooden spoon and probably whitewashed. And we've just recorded our worst ever result against them (admittedly only by a point).

Tougher tests await.
 
My biggest problem with Borthwick is that he will pick players out of position and out of form because he needs X caps in the side according to his formula
That makes no sense and suggests the premise of his gameplay is pretty much based on statistics.
Whilst much of the lack of development can't be apportioned to Jones..ie not developing SH, FH and Wingers. SB seemingly would sooner play someone out of position and out of form than play a younger specialist in their correct position.
Earl and Underhill fairly anonymous yesterday, however both have just come back from lengthy lay offs and will be better for the game.
Ok which players are being played out of position and Earl and Underhill both put in a good shift so I'm not sure how they were anonymous.

My main problem is the very narrow defence, if Italy can get round England like that then what would Ireland or Scotland do.
 
I kind of agree but are you actually expecting to hear as a 'destination'?

The only thing that coaches come out with in that regard is usually a load of hot air with no real definition like 'We want to be the best team in the world' etc.

In a way it would be good to hear Borthwick come out and say something like 'we're targeting a minimum of 3 wins and our focus areas are improving our attack and building a mean (but clean) defence', but I'm not sure it would help anyone that much?
To be honest I'm not really sure, but a bit of honestly, to accept publicly we don't have a big dominant pack that will bully opposition into summation like SA do, whilst there is a place for kicking the game plan isn't so reliant on it and using it to cause opposition into mistakes, to actually have some attacking invention of our own. To this point it's just kind of seems more of the same aimless tactics with a few tweaks in personnel. I'm not expecting over night miracles by any stretch of the imagination. If you are going to play a plan involving a lot of kicking you have to have the players to retain possession a descent chunk of the time and a water tight defence, England have the worst of both, selections and game plan for said selection at the moment just seems to make the coaches the architect of Englands downfalls at times.
 
I kind of agree but are you actually expecting to hear as a 'destination'?

The only thing that coaches come out with in that regard is usually a load of hot air with no real definition like 'We want to be the best team in the world' etc.

In a way it would be good to hear Borthwick come out and say something like 'we're targeting a minimum of 3 wins and our focus areas are improving our attack and building a mean (but clean) defence', but I'm not sure it would help anyone that much?
For me, if you are rebuilding and want to temper expectations, I'd say the team should look at getting the "difficult to beat" label. That means rock solid defence and a good tactical game to keep pressure on the opponents. An attacking game can be built off that afterwards but you want a team that you think can stick if for the full 80 and minimise nasty surprises.

As it is, England's defence is laughably leaky. Players constantly cut right through the middle of our supposedly set defence and pretty much every time the ball gets to the wings, the are able to overload our wing with 2 or 3 on 1's. This simply should not be happening at international level. Yes defences creak after being put under pressure but ours too often completely implode after just 2 or 3 phases, with players often passive and letting our opponents dictate the pace. Many of our players are also too slow to minimise the damage of a break once it has been made, or too lazy to put in the effort to get back onside and minimise the damage. Players are able to run through our defence without even doing any trickery, they will simply get a person to run at a small gap and it's like nobody knows what to do in that situation and breeze right through. No last minute offload or trickery, a player runs right at a gap, the defence can see the player running at the gap but do nothing to stop it.

If Borthwick can get the team doing the basics well, make it difficult to score against us and just create a "solid" team this year, I will be content with that. First run out this year and they seem to be further from that than they were last year.
 
I'm not sure where this came from TBH?

I really don't think anyone is 'excited' and no-one is 'happy with mediocrity'.

We ALL want 'England to be good again'. I just think some are more accepting that we're at an early stage of that journey.
Yeah the whole "journey" "building" thing.

Isn't it just an excuse coaches use to justify crap results and poor performance? England's team has a pretty settled pack with enough Itojes, George's, Marlers etc to be able to do whatever the pack needs to do at that level even with a couple of new faces. Mitchell is settled at 9 and although Farrell has gone both Smith and Ford have been around long enough. The back 3 are interchangeable with Steward and Daly with multiple caps. The only area England are struggling with is in the centre. That side with Borthwick have been around each now for over a year and that was a world cup year so they should be in no need of starting journeys.
 
Have just watched the game. Didn't watch super closely so I'm sure I've missed stuff but these are my thoughts.

Freeman is legit. Looks very at home on the international stage in every facet of the game; defence, ball in hand, high ball, everything.

Roots did what I expected of him. Was busy and aggressive. 7 metres per carry is very impressive for a forward who wasn't returning kicks. I don't think he's a long term answer but he showed he's up to the standard.

Marler, Slade and Steward all caught the eye a bit. Marler was very busy, Slade carried and distributed well, Steward injected himself into the game well.

Stuart showed some glimpses of the player that I think he can be. He carried really well and scrummaged well. I honestly do think he's got the makings of an international class tighthead, he just needs to cut out the stupid errors and get some consistency.

Dingwall had a day to forget. 5 missed tackles and did very poorly against Ioane for his try. Didn't really do anything ball in hand. I wouldn't be ruling him out yet by any means but he really needs to do better than that.

Feyi-Waboso had a couple of good moments in his 3 minutes of game time. A good tackle and a very good carry in traffic.

Really disappointed by the lack of game time for some subs. Less than 10 minutes for all of Dan, Obano, Coles and Feyi-Waboso. Borthwick needs to trust his players and get them some game time.

On the flip side was good to see Smith get nearly 20 minutes. Shows that Borthwick has some faith in him. I didn't really notice him much when he came on but I often think with 9s and 10s that not noticing them tends to be a good thing; it means things are running smoothly. Similarly CCS got plenty of game time and looked physical. Willing to admit that I was wrong in some of my pre-game comments about him not being ready.

Neither of Underhill or Earl really stood out but both are coming back from injury lay-offs. They'll grow into the tournament.
 
Anyone know the turn overs won by England stats. I'm just struggling to remember any good steals which is a concern.

Italy's back row are pretty decent so hopefully it'll be a wake up for when Reffell and co arrive. Wale's back row always have some dog.
 
Yeah the whole "journey" "building" thing.

Isn't it just an excuse coaches use to justify crap results and poor performance? England's team has a pretty settled pack with enough Itojes, George's, Marlers etc to be able to do whatever the pack needs to do at that level even with a couple of new faces. Mitchell is settled at 9 and although Farrell has gone both Smith and Ford have been around long enough. The back 3 are interchangeable with Steward and Daly with multiple caps. The only area England are struggling with is in the centre. That side with Borthwick have been around each now for over a year and that was a world cup year so they should be in no need of starting journeys.
No. I don't think there is any dispute that we were in a very, very poor place this time last year (and before). We have improved, but not by much.

'Journey' was simply the word I chose to describe the improvement curve from rubbish to (hopefully) a point where we become consistently 'good again'. Whether Borthwick is the guy to make that happen is most definitely up for debate.

That said, when a very significant proportion of the squad is different (regardless of the reason), I don't think it's unreasonable to allow some bandwidth for being in reset mode.

Moreover, we knew it was coming … Bortwick chose to stick with the old guard for one last mission at the RWC because the alternative was to overhaul the squad pre tournament. TBH, I think it was probably the right thing to do. Going in with a young squad very likely wouldn't have resulted in being 1 point off of a final. For this 6N, it means a lot of change and a high chance we are going to look disjointed etc. I can get behind it, if we see a progression in performance level and tactical sophistication. If not, I'll be joining the anti-SB movement.
 
On the flip side was good to see Smith get nearly 20 minutes. Shows that Borthwick has some faith in him. I didn't really notice him much when he came on but I often think with 9s and 10s that not noticing them tends to be a good thing; it means things are running smoothly. Similarly CCS got plenty of game time and looked physical. Willing to admit that I was wrong in some of my pre-game comments about him not being ready.
I would have preferred Smith to have some time with Mitchell to see it that helped. Having said that, Dawson made a good point which was once the subs came on, England went very conservative and played like they were trying to see out the win, which suggests it was a coaching decision and we weren't going to see Smith's natural game anyway.
 
Going from possession with advantage 5m out and 30seconds left, to conceding a try and giving up the LBP sums it up really. **** off Borthwick.
 
No. I don't think there is any dispute that we were in a very, very poor place this time last year (and before). We have improved, but not by much.

'Journey' was simply the word I chose to describe the improvement curve from rubbish to (hopefully) a point where we become consistently 'good again'. Whether Borthwick is the guy to make that happen is most definitely up for debate.

That said, when a very significant proportion of the squad is different (regardless of the reason), I don't think it's unreasonable to allow some bandwidth for being in reset mode.

Moreover, we knew it was coming … Bortwick chose to stick with the old guard for one last mission at the RWC because the alternative was to overhaul the squad pre tournament. TBH, I think it was probably the right thing to do. Going in with a young squad very likely wouldn't have resulted in being 1 point off of a final. For this 6N, it means a lot of change and a high chance we are going to look disjointed etc. I can get behind it, if we see a progression in performance level and tactical sophistication. If not, I'll be joining the anti-SB movement.
If it goes wrong, we'll need a man that no one can beat.
 
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