[2020 Autumn Nations Cup] England vs France (06/12/20)

[FLOBALOB]

Our first win when trailing at halftime in 2 years. A turning point?

Doesn't it go down as a draw in the records ?.

 

[Goodey]

Doesn't it go down as a draw in the records ?.

Yeah the test match was a draw. The extra time was to decide the cup winners in the event of the draw.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

I think EJ really needs to consider if Farrell is the right man to lead. He's always seemed whiny when talking to the ref. When England struggle he doesn't seem to have any ideas of how to motivate the team. He's a liability in defence. His place kicking has dropped significantly and he's not much better kicking from hand or with ball in hand. Often makes the wrong choice when attacking.

It takes more than picking the best players to create a winning team. Farrell has been crap as a player this autumn, but the players love him and respond to him and keep winning under his captaincy, again and again and again (as opposed to, say, AWJ, who is the greatest captain that ever lived with intangibles off the scale, but his team keeps losing, losing, losing). Farrell's response to Jill Douglas when asked about having the opportunity to win the game, laughing and saying he'd had too many opportunities, shows he knows he has been s**t. But it won't last. Form is temporary, class is permanent. And Farrell is class.

 

[ncurd]

And Farrell is class.

I'm unconvinced, I've always been in camp overrated but I'm genuinely struggling to think of his last MOTM performance. When was the last time we saw flashes of true brilliance? It's almost like Youngs except I can remember Youngs having good/great games although they were long ago.

I've said he should start at 12 because he's the best we've got to go there. But now I'm unsure Id like to see Ford given an opportunity to start with Slade/Daly/AN Other and see how much of our attack is being blown by Farrell. I think it's a fair bit.


Today was also **** captaincy, should of not been kicking and to kick whilst 7 points down when you've been **** kicking is just massaging your own ego of the highest order.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

and to kick whilst 7 points down when you've been **** kicking is just massaging your own ego of the highest order.

I had no issue with that decision tbh,
Was the right call

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Today was also **** captaincy, should of not been kicking and to kick whilst 7 points down when you've been **** kicking is just massaging your own ego of the highest order.

Or sheer, bloody-minded fighting spirit. I remember the bad old days of Charlie Hodgson scoring a ridiculous number of kicks in a single match if the first one went over, or none at all of it didn't. Even Wilko had some dreadful days from the tee and stilll kept stepping up and stepping up (see the WC quarter-final against Oz in 2007). Farrell was dreadful today, no question, but he still hit the game-winner. It takes some doing to be that awful and still win it with your boot. I appreciate that.

 

[ncurd]

Or sheer, bloody-minded fighting spirit. I remember the bad old days of Charlie Hodgson scoring a ridiculous number of kicks in a single match if the first one went over, or none at all of it didn't. Even Wilko had some dreadful days from the tee and stilll kept stepping up and stepping up (see the WC quarter-final against Oz in 2007). Farrell was dreadful today, no question, but he still hit the game-winner. It takes some doing to be that awful and still win it with your boot. I appreciate that.

I don't rate it at all, there are two capable kickers on the pitch. He should of stopped kicking, a captain should recognise he's not up to it that day it takes a bad set of arrogance to carry on like he did and could of easially been on the wrong side. Nobody would lauding him if France won and he didn't win this in a clutch he's dreadful play and kicking was a direct result of this match being close.

I had no issue with that decision tbh,
Was the right call

Hard disagree where are the other 4 points coming from? Because it requires 2 more penalties or a try and you have to get up in there up to two times. You take time out the game for taking the penalty (which you'd get at the end). It's poor game management plus you just missed a sitter on a game where your missing. I usually say kick the points and this is one of the few where I'd say behave otherwise.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Or sheer, bloody-minded fighting spirit. I remember the bad old days of Charlie Hodgson scoring a ridiculous number of kicks in a single match if the first one went over, or none at all of it didn't. Even Wilko had some dreadful days from the tee and stilll kept stepping up and stepping up (see the WC quarter-final against Oz in 2007). Farrell was dreadful today, no question, but he still hit the game-winner. It takes some doing to be that awful and still win it with your boot. I appreciate that.

Being a kicker at international level must be a horrendous amount of pressure. I can forgive the odd bad day, as you say it happens to everyone.

Point to note; Farrell gets better with pressure- as he did in the second half and extra time especially (one narrow miss excepted), or a la 2017 Lions.

 

[ncurd]

Being a kicker at international level must be a horrendous amount of pressure. I can forgive the odd bad day, as you say it happens to everyone.

Point to note; Farrell gets better with pressure- as he did in the second half and extra time especially (one narrow miss excepted), or a la 2017 Lions.

He didn't get better...not in any statistical measure other than he got two in a row....that's not something to get excited about. Plus his kicking has been shot all Autumn. With one game above 80% (Ireland) and that should be where he is every game.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

I don't rate it at all, there are two capable kickers on the pitch. He should of stopped kicking, a captain should recognise he's not up to it that day it takes a bad set of arrogance to carry on like he did and could of easially been on the wrong side. Nobody would lauding him if France won and he didn't win this in a clutch he's dreadful play and kicking was a direct result of this match being close.

Yes, he could have been on the wrong side, but he wasn't. He won. France didn't. And Farrell kicked the winner. And his teammates jumped on him in joy. Rugby is a hard old game and no-one is perfect every match.

Farrell was s**t, but we won anyway. That speaks volumes for the quality of this team. When one player has a bad day, another one steps up to make the difference in the match. That's why it's so important to have lots of good players rather than one or two. The Kiwis won when Dan Carter played s**t, the Wallabies won when Stephen Larkham played s**t and England win when Owen Farrell plays s**t. Nowt wrong with that.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Point to note; Farrell gets better with pressure- as he did in the second half and extra time especially (one narrow miss excepted), or a la 2017 Lions.

Yeah, I've noticed this too. If it's early in the game or there's not much between the teams, he's so-so. If it's an absolute must hit-it kick, he's something like 98%. He reminds me of Joe Montana (for all you ancient American football fans out there): abysmal in the first half, but once he was 20 points down, he just couldn't miss a single pass.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Playing poorly for a string of games and beating all second choice teams with our first choice isn't something to celebrate.

There is a reason most other teams are rebuilding, it's the correct time to. Eddie has learned next to nothing from this series and he doesn't seem to have learned anything game on game either.

Feels like we wasted this series and just managed to beat everyone's second team with our first choice.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Feels like we wasted this series and just managed to beat everyone's second team with our first choice.

100% this
What exactly did we learn?

The only good thing to come out of this tournament was Lawrence getting some starts and not looking out of place at international level.
Other than that we completely wasted the opportunity to get a proper look at a new 9, winger and full (well, other than putting JJ on the wing for some reason).
We blooded/tested more players in positions that don't have question marks over them than we did positions that have ggllaarriinngg question marks over them.

 

[Goodey]

I'm unconvinced, I've always been in camp overrated but I'm genuinely struggling to think of his last MOTM performance. When was the last time we saw flashes of true brilliance? It's almost like Youngs except I can remember Youngs having good/great games although they were long ago.

I've said he should start at 12 because he's the best we've got to go there. But now I'm unsure Id like to see Ford given an opportunity to start with Slade/Daly/AN Other and see how much of our attack is being blown by Farrell. I think it's a fair bit.


Today was also **** captaincy, should of not been kicking and to kick whilst 7 points down when you've been **** kicking is just massaging your own ego of the highest order.

Quarter final of the World Cup, I think.

 

[Goodey]

100% this
What exactly did we learn?

The only good thing to come out of this tournament was Lawrence getting some starts and not looking out of place at international level.
Other than that we completely wasted the opportunity to get a proper look at a new 9, winger and full (well, other than putting JJ on the wing for some reason).
We blooded/tested more players in positions that don't have question marks over them than we did positions that have ggllaarriinngg question marks over them.

I like it when my team plays and they win stuff.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

I like it when my team plays and they win stuff.

This. Totally this.

What exactly do people want from England rugby? 8 wins out of 9 in 2020, winning both trophies on offer this year, yet this board is full of people complaining that they haven't blooded a second-string scrum half or the England captain isn't perfect every game or Eddie Jones hasn't learnt who his backup 8 is. I get that we want to be as successful as the All-Blacks, but do we have to act like All-Blacks fans? I mean, come on, we're England and we're actually winning games. F**king hell, that's weird, but it's great.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

yet this board is full of people complaining that they haven't blooded a second-string scrum half

....yes?
Unless you're happy going into 2023 with only Youngs and no one behind him?


I don't really see much to be happy about - limping home against an u23 French side who have less caps, combined, than a number of our individual players have.
If it had been a resounding, confident, victory - where we can see we've built game on game then brill, yeah, we're headed in the right direction.
Instead we looked crap and could've easily lost if the ref hadn't misread that knockon in the 22

French coaches will have learned a ton about these young players, and given them valuable experience.


You don't get better by doing the same old **** every week, but worse.

 

[ncurd]

This. Totally this.

What exactly do people want from England rugby? 8 wins out of 9 in 2020, winning both trophies on offer this year, yet this board is full of people complaining that they haven't blooded a second-string scrum half or the England captain isn't perfect every game or Eddie Jones hasn't learnt who his backup 8 is. I get that we want to be as successful as the All-Blacks, but do we have to act like All-Blacks fans? I mean, come on, we're England and we're actually winning games. F**king hell, that's weird, but it's great.

Actually you look at the great ABs side and they were never really afraid of changing it up for different openents. Part of what use to work is they always knew who their next player was and picking the game to blood them.

9s been an issue for a long time and nothing has happened to change my mind on that. Infact the last 10mins with Robson were proof of that. It's not about backup 9 it's about who should be starting. Yet we pretend it isn't a problem.

Our captain has a very poor series (and hasn't had a great year). Yet he's in because we.dint lose today despite the fact we came damn near close.

Centers remain a conundrum especially when Tualangi isn't available.

The forwards are.looking great and that what is winning us games but only two of the backs are doing a job and they are stuck out on the wings so have the least impact on the game as a whole.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

....yes?
Unless you're happy going into 2023 with only Youngs and no one behind him?


I don't really see much to be happy about - limping how against an u23 French side who have less caps, combined, than a number of our individual players have.
If it had been a resounding, confident, victory - where we can see we've built game on game then brill, yeah, we're headed in the right direction.
Instead we looked crap and could've easily lost if the ref hadn't misread that knockon in the 22

Except we didn't lose, we won, and we came back to do it, something that has been exceedingly rare for England. We're so used to dominating sides and taking the lead that we get flustered when we can't. And lose. Yet this time we hung in there and got the equaliser in the final minute, then overcame mistakes to take the game in extra time. I thought it was a major step forward for these young, talented players.

 

[ncurd]

But they aren't playing SA in a world cup final. As pointed out they essentially beat a U23 France by a whisker. This isn't a Grand Slam decider in intensity and only barely above an average test match (and some won't consider it above that). You have to ask why they had to pull it back and in that position and why they hadn't put the game to bed. Playing a 1st choice side you'd be happy with the resolve.

Remember when the side wete doing badly in EJs winning streak but still winning games? Remember how long it took to correct once we started loosing. If we don't recognise the fault now we'll be undercooked when we want it to really count.