[2020 Autumn Nations Cup] England vs France (06/12/20)

[TRF_Olyy]

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[Not Eddie Jones]

Interesting stat number 1: In almost 5 years under Eddie Jones, England have won 28 of 32 homes games, with 3 defeats (Ireland, Barbarians, NZ - all in 2018) and a draw (Scotland 2019).

Interesting stat number 2: in the last decade (2011-2020) England have lost to 6-nations sides at Twickenham (including 6N games, WC warm-ups etc) just 3 times. Wales won in the 6N in 2012 and the WC in 2015 while Ireland won in the 6N in 2018. There was also that infamous draw with Scotland in 2019. That's 30 home wins in 34 attempts in the last 10 years against 6N opposition.

Soooo.... If we don't win this one against a France B team, we'll never live it down.

 

[Oliver Madden]

Lost all of my enthusiasm for this game after seeing the squad that France have selected. It's a farce that they can't pick their best team. Why the French Federation and the clubs can't reach an agreement on International windows is beyond me, Its embarrassing. England will win by loads. England 40 France 10.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Why the French Federation and the clubs can't reach an agreement on International windows is beyond me

This was their agreement, clubs get them for half the games, international for the other half.

AN Cup is a tinpot tournament that shouldn't be happening - I'm definitely on the side of the clubs in this situation, their season has been screwed by COVID anyway, let alone losing their players for all of this (and then in a few weeks the Six Nations).

I feel for the English clubs that are without their internationals for....12? of the 22rds of this season

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

This was their agreement, clubs get them for half the games, international for the other half.

AN Cup is a tinpot tournament that shouldn't be happening - I'm definitely on the side of the clubs in this situation, their season has been screwed by COVID anyway, let alone losing their players for all of this (and then in a few weeks the Six Nations).

I feel for the English clubs that are without their internationals for....12? of the 22rds of this season

I like how AN Cup just sounds like a variation of AN Other. Kinda fits its status.

 

[Goodey]

Interesting stat number 1: In almost 5 years under Eddie Jones, England have won 28 of 32 homes games, with 3 defeats (Ireland, Barbarians, NZ - all in 2018) and a draw (Scotland 2019).

Interesting stat number 2: in the last decade (2011-2020) England have lost to 6-nations sides at Twickenham (including 6N games, WC warm-ups etc) just 3 times. Wales won in the 6N in 2012 and the WC in 2015 while Ireland won in the 6N in 2018. There was also that infamous draw with Scotland in 2019. That's 30 home wins in 34 attempts in the last 10 years against 6N opposition.

Soooo.... If we don't win this one against a France B team, we'll never live it down.

I dunno about 'never live it down', I get the feeling that the Autumn Nations Cup is such an oddity as to be consigned to a footnote in history regardless of the outcome. Very much doubt we will see its ilk again for a long time.

Unless you're talking about those Welsh/Scots fans who insist on trying to take credit for some sort of shared anti-English glory they've constructed, in which case, well, you get used to it

 

[TommiG88]

Joseph injured! We may actually see 2 wingers on the field!!

 

[spartan32]

Im with Madden. What a complete anti climax this is going to be, and really has been throughout. France should have been the first real test of this English side. A team who are really in their stride and on the rise. It that Ireland and Wales are bad teams, but they are both going through a transitional period and this is clearly effecting them. And then to have club politics stuff the whole thing up. The rugby world really needs to start to wake up. Interest in the game is waning and if everyone isn't on the same page it could spell disaster.

As for the game itself. England need to start showing a bit of attacking flare and ability, and against a heavily weakened French side there is no excuse not to. If you can't play an expansive game and take a few risks in a situation like this then when the hell can you. Give the fans an exhibition of champagne rugby at the very least and go out with a bang. Give Robson some decent game time, get Thorley out there, kick for the corner at every opportunity, and run the dam ball!!

 

[Jashay]

As for the game itself. England need to start showing a bit of attacking flare and ability, and against a heavily weakened French side there is no excuse not to. If you can't play an expansive game and take a few risks in a situation like this then when the hell can you.

Well we didn't against Italy, or Georgia, or an underperforming Wales, so I'll be a wee bit surprised if we suddenly start flinging it around. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see more attacking flair, but I'm not expecting it!

 

[Mikey12]

England won't fling it about as the French showed enough with a second string 15 against Italy to say we can be dangerous with ball in hand. It's a shame they will be without Ntamack and Dupont Fikou Terry thomas crikey just about everyone exciting. England will win based on the first 15 sides dominance upfront but, it will be by two falls and a submission rather than attacking play.
It's been a strange Autumn, i've enjoed watching some international rugby but, have missed the Southern Hemisphere sides we play a very boring game in the north at the moment defend and kick, jackal and kick, maul and fall over the line for a try. It's hardly been a rivoting watch irrespective of who you support.

 

[Goodey]

The jackal seems to have been retrospectively added to 'boring rugby' now that England are good at it.

Five years ago people in England were having a good moan about us not having a jackler openside like the exciting southern teams do.

Grass is always greener, hey.

 

[Mikey12]

The jackal seems to have been retrospectively added to 'boring rugby' now that England are good at it.

Five years ago people in England were having a good moan about us not having a jackler openside like the exciting southern teams do.

Grass is always greener, hey.

The Jackal isn't boring at all and England have some great exponents in Willis and Underhill but, when you steel possession to then kick it away instantly that is boring.

When you jackal the ball the opposition aren't lined up where you expect them to be to defend, it's the perfect opportunity to run and gain good yards before the opposition can reset. Yes sometimes it's also a good kicking opportunity if the 15 is up in the line but you rarely gain as good a distance unless it is kicked off the field of play. If it stays infield invariably it comes back with interest and then we are into ping pong.

 

[Goodey]

The Jackal isn't boring at all and England have some great exponents in Willis and Underhill but, when you steel possession to then kick it away instantly that is boring.

When you jackal the ball the opposition aren't lined up where you expect them to be to defend, it's the perfect opportunity to run and gain good yards before the opposition can reset. Yes sometimes it's also a good kicking opportunity if the 15 is up in the line but you rarely gain as good a distance unless it is kicked off the field of play. If it stays infield invariably it comes back with interest and then we are into ping pong.

90% of the time, a jackal results in a penalty.

The best way to create open play against a set defence now is usually to kick, infield, just outside the opposition 22 (that way they can't call a mark or clear it into touch). Then their options are:

Return - under pressure and from likely a poor angle
Try to use forward carries to set up a kick that's better, which carries the risk of giving away a penalty
Run it back, which probably concedes territory overall and gives an opportunity to the back row
Pass from your own half, which as mentioned, against a set defensive play usually does not work

This is most teams' strategy from outside the opposition 40 vs a set defence for good reason, and it does create perilous situations for the opposing team when the kicks are accurate. It doesn't work when the kicks overshoot into the oppo 22, which we saw a lot of on Saturday. Or when the resulting ruck is well secured and in a good position to return, in which case, ping pong.

The standard armchair opinion of blaming strategy when it's actually a question of accuracy is a big part of pretending you know more than international coaches though, so I don't want to take it away from any loyal fans here.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Well we didn't against Italy, or Georgia, or an underperforming Wales, so I'll be a wee bit surprised if we suddenly start flinging it around. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see more attacking flair, but I'm not expecting it!

I don't want to see us flinging it around like headless chickens, but I do want to see the backs used more and for them to do things like quick, decisive service from SH (OK, OK....), passes that team mates can run onto, aiming for space not contact, using a pass to take opponents out of the game and being able to spot and execute an overlap. This may be flamboyant by current international standards, but ought to be fully engrained in any self respecting u13.

Of course kicking is an important part of the game and it's totally down to the half backs to decide what to do in any given play (unless the coach is that overbearing).

If our pack is half as good as some people. reckon there should be plenty of good ball for those mythical creatures 9-15 to use. Let's see them try.

 

[Ferrari333SP]

 

[Goodey]

Haha, the bit three minutes in where they're all sat around having to watch a presentation and they all look bored as ****

I've never related to international rugby players so much

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I swear they wouldn't be any worse if they met on a Thursday night, had a load of beers and then walked through a few moves on the Fri while their heads were clearing.

 

[Goodey]

I swear they wouldn't be any worse if they met on a Thursday night, had a load of beers and then walked through a few moves on the Fri while their heads were clearing.

The analysis is definitely doing something, it'd be churlish luddism to say otherwise. Even if it only makes a 1% difference, the margins in elite sport are close enough for that to seriously count.

But there is a fair helping of corporate bullshit in there, particularly the comments about learning styles which are based on 20 year old discredited nonsense and were strongly beaten out of me when I trained as a teacher.

 

[FrenchFan]

Jones said rugby is only 'entertaining to the purists'. I don't find it entertaining. I'm probably not a purist. The Italy and Scot games were a kicking snooze fest. Teddy Thomas tried to kick from his wing where he normally runs. He doesn't do that with Racing. It's ok Teddy we knew you can't kick...
Galthié in his coaching has fallen into the kicking trap. Les Bleus were predictable. What will they learn from the final I have no idea. Galthie already knows that outside of the Toulouse first starters at 2 7 9 10 15 he doesn't have much of a team.
Against 2nd div Italy, Galthié picked running backs and locked them into a kicking game. When Dulin opted to run the ball he beat 2 defenders and set up Teddy Thomas for a simple try. Same for Villiere's try who just ran at a static defense from a line-out and scored virtually unopposed.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

I'm far from unentertained by rugby at the moment. For me, there's as much pleasure watching a good defence as there is watching a good attack. I love the collisions and the physical contest. And there's nothing unappealing about kicking. Part of the appeal of union over league for me is that there are multiple ways to play the game. At the moment, Eddie's identified a tactic that is the opposition have utterly failed to handle for much of the year, most of our wins have been very comfortable in 2020, but I'm sure this time next year England will be doing something different again. That's the appeal of union. And after so many frustrating years under Robinson, Ashton, Johnson and Lancaster, I'm just chuffed we're winning games regularly again. Carry on, chaps!