[2020 Autumn Nations Cup] England vs France (06/12/20)

[Not Eddie Jones]

Case in point the 2003 side never looked like loosing. The only game they lost in that year was a warm up match whilst Woodward was trying some rotation. Also because of no succession planning we immediately went to **** for about a decade with many false dawns.

England were dreadful against France in the 2003 6N opener that year and just a couple of months before had to have a record comeback against Oz to beat them 32-31 at home. And they were crap in Wales in the 6N and only let off by the fact Wales were even worse. And were losing at halftime to Samoa and Wales in the WC. Don't think I can buy they never looked like losing, I remember the heart problems.

I can agree though that there are some positions where we need to think about succession planning a bit more, but honestly, if that's England's biggest problem, it's not that big of a problem.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Not good ones, I've worked for many **** people who thought they were the big I am and made things. Good people have worked for know when they don't have all the answers and willing to give responsibilities to others.

Same principals apply on a rugby field.

But Farrell was right, he could kick the winner. And he did.

Sorry, what am I missing here?

 

[ncurd]

But Farrell was right, he could kick the winner. And he did.

Sorry, what am I missing here?

He missed 4 other winners...

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

He missed 4 other winners...

Yeah, and George missed some lineout throws and Itoje missed some catches and England as a team missed 20-odd tackles and knocked on far too many times, but I don't see any discussion about that. Goalkickers are an easy target, and Farrell was awful today, as I've said, but I'm keeping it in perspective.

England were collectively rubbish today. And won. Hurrah!

On to the next game.

 

[Ferrari333SP]

 

[Jimbo]

Yeah, and George missed some lineout throws and Itoje missed some catches and England as a team missed 20-odd tackles and knocked on far too many times, but I don't see any discussion about that. Goalkickers are an easy target, and Farrell was awful today, as I've said, but I'm keeping it in perspective.

England were collectively rubbish today. And won. Hurrah!

On to the next game.

Not sure how you can compare these as points, Farrell only had to say sorry Ford, Slade or Daly whoever not feeling it today can u take over the kicking duties, assuming George is solely responsible for the lineout failings (I don't believe he is) what would you expect him to do ask to be substituted? A completely functioning lineout wouldn't guarantee the win where as the kick at the beginning of Extra time a kick would have. I don't by into the oh it shows his strength keep stepping up etc etc, to me it would show more leadership to just accept a team mate could do a better job on that day and wouldn't be a sign of weakness etc.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Not sure how you can compare these as points, Farrell only had to say sorry Ford, Slade or Daly whoever not feeling it today can u take over the kicking duties, assuming George is solely responsible for the lineout failings (I don't believe he is) what would you expect him to do ask to be substituted? A completely functioning lineout wouldn't guarantee the win where as the kick at the beginning of Extra time a kick would have. I don't by into the oh it shows his strength keep stepping up etc etc, to me it would show more leadership to just accept a team mate could do a better job on that day and wouldn't be a sign of weakness etc.

Okay, fair points, I do get what you're saying, but Farrell didn't keep kicking and failing, he kept kicking and succeeded. And England won it. What else could have been achieved by Ford kicking it? What didn't happen because Farrell didn't give up the kicking duties?

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

I think what I'm saying is that England have got a lot of dog, not just as a team, but individually as players. And dog will win you a lot of games.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Yeah, and George missed some lineout throws and Itoje missed some catches and England as a team missed 20-odd tackles and knocked on far too many times, but I don't see any discussion about that. Goalkickers are an easy target, and Farrell was awful today, as I've said, but I'm keeping it in perspective.

England were collectively rubbish today. And won. Hurrah!

On to the next game.

A lot wrong with this, George had been having brilliant lineouts through the series with some 100%'s, Itoje had been recognised as having some great games too. Farrell has been repeatedly missing kicks before this game, repeatedly making the wrong decisions, repeatedly doing poor kicks from hand. This wasn't an off game, it was an off tournament. Itoje and George by no measure underperformed in this tournament.

Also the lineouts are subject to opposition disruption and the rest of your team getting the jump right, Farrell has nobody to blame but himself for his missed kicked. The 2 are not comparable at all. Farrell has been worse than poor for the team, he's a liability. People are relying on him to execute things and he simply isn't doing it.

A team looking poor for the odd game and still winning is the sign of a good team, a team repeatedly looking poor and winning is the sign of a team that very soon will not be winning any more unless things change. See 2017, we kept scraping wins, nothing changed, we got to 2018 and it all went to pieces with some of our worst results in recent history. That was an entire year written off. Imagine 2021 goes that way? So we don't recognise and start addressing the problems until 2022, 1 year before the world cup. Also 2003 shows the importance of good succession, we were nowhere for about 10 years because we just stuffed all our caps into 1 team, admittedly a very good one, but once they were gone we had absolutely nothing behind them.

 

[Jimbo]

Okay, fair points, I do get what you're saying, but Farrell didn't keep kicking and failing, he kept kicking and succeeded. And England won it. What else could have been achieved by Ford kicking it? What didn't happen because Farrell didn't give up the kicking duties?

If all you count is the outcome in the end fine but it was a lot closer for comfort than needed to be, also a hell of a lot of luck.

for the record I usually defend Farrell and do rate him pretty highly it is testament to him how good he is considering he doesn't have any real standout attributes, he's not particularly quick or strong or has a huge boot and yet is still such a key component to Sarries and England.

 

[Yulia]

Kicking is just not Farrell's strong side from what I've seen.
(I play a rugby expert here )
The rest of the game I haven't even noticed him

 

[Mikey12]

That first half showed the danger of following a strategy and not playing what's in front of you. England kicked long France mixed it up but were willing to run from their own half. The possession they had gave them an advantage and they were playing well above their experience level.
Anyone who think Edwards hasn't made a difference just needs to rewatch that Goal line defensive effort just before half time. That is his calling card, he knew which players would go high or low and had drilled his team into a complete defensive unit, maximum effort to repel the opposition. Wales used to play in a near identical way. Second half was cagey France were happy to keep the board ticking over. England's bench made the difference and got them that final try without it that would have been quite a shock. France unfortunately had used half their bench with injuries and the loss of Jaibert I think is where England eventually won. France clearly have strength in depth with some exciting young talented players and come next World Cup I'd expect them to be one of the favourites. England need to develop their all round they have the manpower but the strategy does look quite one dimensional.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

A lot wrong with this, George had been having brilliant lineouts through the series with some 100%'s, Itoje had been recognised as having some great games too. Farrell has been repeatedly missing kicks before this game, repeatedly making the wrong decisions, repeatedly doing poor kicks from hand. This wasn't an off game, it was an off tournament. Itoje and George by no measure underperformed in this tournament.

Also the lineouts are subject to opposition disruption and the rest of your team getting the jump right, Farrell has nobody to blame but himself for his missed kicked. The 2 are not comparable at all. Farrell has been worse than poor for the team, he's a liability. People are relying on him to execute things and he simply isn't doing it.

A team looking poor for the odd game and still winning is the sign of a good team, a team repeatedly looking poor and winning is the sign of a team that very soon will not be winning any more unless things change. See 2017, we kept scraping wins, nothing changed, we got to 2018 and it all went to pieces with some of our worst results in recent history. That was an entire year written off. Imagine 2021 goes that way? So we don't recognise and start addressing the problems until 2022, 1 year before the world cup. Also 2003 shows the importance of good succession, we were nowhere for about 10 years because we just stuffed all our caps into 1 team, admittedly a very good one, but once they were gone we had absolutely nothing behind them.

I completely agree that Farrell is off form, no question. And I completely agree that a team scraping through games while looking bad will eventually find itself collapsing (hello Wales 2019-20). But I'm not sure we are that team. The only thing that's really looked bad this year is the attack. Defence has been sound, rarely allowing more than 1 try per game, if that. Set piece has been really good since Proudfoot arrived (today excepted), dominant even. Breakdown has gone from a major weakness (no jackals, kept getting turned over) to a major stength. Team is settled, loaded and happy. Sure, there are things that can get better, I'm not arguing, but there are plenty of things about this team that are excellent and one shoddy performance doesn't change that.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Only just caught up with this. Just a reminder, this was at home with our first choice team v France B with a tenth of our caps.

Dire again. And it wasn't a one off, we've stunk the place out all autumn. We've won, but look at the oppo. I'd take a different view if we'd beaten NZ and the Boks, but the team has regressed while others have taken the chance to rebuild.

Faz was poor all round, but we really shouldn't have been relying on kicks in this game.

Jones needs to take a bloody hard look in the mirror. If the players have executed what he wanted that needs to change, big time. If the players haven't then he's got some big selection decisions coming up - too many in key positions living on past glories.

A mess.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Anyone who think Edwards hasn't made a difference just needs to rewatch that Goal line defensive effort just before half time.

But not France's goal line effort on 80 minutes with the game on the line? Yay Edwards.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Only just caught up with this. Just a reminder, this was at home with our first choice team v France B with a tenth of our caps.

Dire again. And it wasn't a one off, we've stunk the place out all autumn. We've won, but look at the oppo. I'd take a different view if we'd beaten NZ and the Boks, but the team has regressed while others have taken the chance to rebuild.

Faz was poor all round, but we really shouldn't have been relying on kicks in this game.

Jones needs to take a bloody hard look in the mirror. If the players have executed what he wanted that needs to change, big time. If the players haven't then he's got some big selection decisions coming up - too many in key positions living on past glories.

A mess.

Really? That's really what you think after 8 straight wins, Ireland struggling, Wales in a shambles? That England have stunk the place out? That they're a mess?

Man, I'm a complete weirdo. Satisfied with England wins and don't expect them to look like gods doing it. Maybe I need to take a bloody hard look in the mirror...

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Really? That's really what you think after 8 straight wins, Ireland struggling, Wales in a shambles? That England have stunk the place out? That they're a mess?

Man, I'm a complete weirdo. Satisfied with England wins and don't expect them to look like gods doing it. Maybe I need to take a bloody hard look in the mirror...

Wales have looked a mess with a new coaching team who want to play a completely different style but haven't yet worked out how they want to execute it or who should. Ireland are looking poor but have tried a lot more new caps with significant game time, as have Wales. A have basically put out a team we already know a lot about and simply shown a lot have regressed without really looking at their alternatives. Look at what Robson and Malins brought to the game today, why did we not know they could do this all the way back in the Georgia game? Because for some stupid reason Jones decided he wouldn't see what they could offer, even after the game was easily won. Same with Wales and Ireland. We've got to the end of this and what have we learned? Wales and Ireland have at least some clue of who can and can't step up at the moment. We've only seen that some of our regulars are a bit too comfortable in their places and can perform really badly, repeatedly without any worry. All our strongest positions are the ones where the position can be taken by another player. Our weakest positions are all the ones locked down by Jones favourites with nobody else getting a look in.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Okay, I'm really confused. We're winning. Lots and lots of games. More games than any other team outside NZ and more games than England have won for decades. And yet I'm being told what a terrible team we are with terrible players and a terrible coach. And every England supporter is totally upset by the crapness of their team. What exactly am I missing here? It's a genuine question.

 

[Yulia]

Okay, I'm really confused. We're winning. Lots and lots of games. More games than any other team outside NZ and more games than England have won for decades. And yet I'm being told what a terrible team we are with terrible players and a terrible coach. And every England supporter is totally upset by the crapness of their team. What exactly am I missing here? It's a genuine question.

I think they mean that a short term success in smaller competitions is less important than wins in bigger competitions/world cups and this is a tactic of short term wins there

 

[Mikey12]

But not France's goal line effort on 80 minutes with the game on the line? Yay Edwards.

You need to rewatch the last three minutes. Farrell knocked the ball on at the ruck 78.15 but France got penalised by the ref saying the ball wasn't out. Fords excellent kick went to the corner. Cowan Dickie scores rolling off the back of a super maul into France wing no 11. Who'd played brilliantly for 80 minutes. Sometimes the opposition is simply to big and too fresh for you to stop from 1/2 yard.