[2019 Rugby Championship] Round 2: New Zealand vs. South Africa (27/07/2019)

[Rinkadink]

I agree it should be clamped down on. Every team will try to do this, but a red card/citing/banning offence out of nowhere? Come on. Would also encourage people to pay close attention to where referees say the mark for a penalty is vs where the penalty offence occurred/where the mark should be. It's often way off and can unfairly favour sides massively.

Are we going to cite both SA and NZ hookers who probably only managed one straight throw between them? Ban them from the RWC, haha... perspective, people.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I agree it should be clamped down on. Every team will try to do this, but a red card/citing/banning offence out of nowhere? Come on. Would also encourage people to pay close attention to where referees say the mark for a penalty is vs where the penalty offence occurred/where the mark should be. It's often way off and can unfairly favour sides massively.

Are we going to cite both SA and NZ hookers who probably only managed one straight throw between them? Ban them from the RWC, haha... perspective, people.

I get that. But the whole purpose of rugby is to go forward, and earn metres to get to the tryline to score points. Now a kicker is "stealing" metres they didn't earn. It's not the same as a lineout thrower not throwing straight.

I have seen many instances where kickers does this, and yeah usually the referee will tell them to go back to the mark, or sometimes they just didn't place it on the right mark, and even ask the referee for the mark. But IMHO this was a bit different than that. Barrett's intention was to get closer, he waited and anticipated until the ref's back was facing him, and then did that tap of the ball ahead. The deception and the manner in which he did this, is a lot different from other kickers, and that's where the issue is.

Maybe citing or suspension is a bit harsh, but you have to start somewhere to stop this from happening, so perhaps acting harsher to players doing this, will be the only way to stop them from doing this.

 

[unrated]

Thats the point though if its so common and nothing gets done about it going forward then everyone should start doing it. And if everyone starts doing it then it will spiral out of control and make a mockery of the rules. If lance Armstrong argued that his steroids only helped him 1% does it not become doping anymore? Is some form of cheating acceptable but other forms not?

I can realize for myself that a ban seems outrageous for such a small offence. Its clear to me that it's a small offence and that the difference was marginal. But please try and understand dear forum users, cheating behaviour remains cheating behaviour and if there is no retroactive punishment given out then it can be manipulated. This is where WR clarity comes in again. Is only Owen Farrel allowed to do the no arm tackles or is it banned for everyone? The rules has to be applied to the letter of the law otherwise it gets abused why does some of you not get that? The game is over. I don't care about it. I care about someone stating an official position for offences such as this and the Farrel no arm tackle for future cases.

If not then where does it stop? Let's teach our children to spit in the faces of opposition players when the referee does not look. The performance gain from the other player not seeing would only be marginal. If enough people do it then it also becomes common as some of you has said. Does common cheating become more acceptable? That was certainly Lance Armstrong case when he said " but everyone was doing it".

Please understand I used extreme examples. It does not mean I condone it but rather it was used to prove a point. If you don't take it to the extreme some people can't grasp the issue that your are trying to raise.

 

[bushytop]

What I'm trying to get at, is that not only the Pacific Islands had indigenous people who had war dances. Africa has the same, and with colonization the European settlers had to embrace their cultures and build from

Fair comment... it just seems 'to me' as an outsider looking in that the indigenous peoples of South Africa would not be cool with White South Africans performing a tribal war dance (due to the proverbial 'water under the bridge' etc)... but if it turned out that they would, awesome!

 

[Every Time Ref]

I get that. But the whole purpose of rugby is to go forward, and earn metres to get to the tryline to score points. Now a kicker is "stealing" metres they didn't earn. It's not the same as a lineout thrower not throwing straight.

I have seen many instances where kickers does this, and yeah usually the referee will tell them to go back to the mark, or sometimes they just didn't place it on the right mark, and even ask the referee for the mark. But IMHO this was a bit different than that. Barrett's intention was to get closer, he waited and anticipated until the ref's back was facing him, and then did that tap of the ball ahead. The deception and the manner in which he did this, is a lot different from other kickers, and that's where the issue is.

Maybe citing or suspension is a bit harsh, but you have to start somewhere to stop this from happening, so perhaps acting harsher to players doing this, will be the only way to stop them from doing this.

Maybe reverse the penalty? Bans and citing are clearly way out of proportion for me - but doubt kickers would risk reversing the pen for a negligible gain of a couple of metres. And the TMO can be watching out for it

 

[TRF_heineken]

Maybe reverse the penalty? Bans and citing are clearly way out of proportion for me - but doubt kickers would risk reversing the pen for a negligible gain of a couple of metres. And the TMO can be watching out for it

If it's spotted, then yeah do that. But this wasn't and to me it's bringing the game into disrepute, like @unrated is saying, if it becomes the norm then we have a problem. Why not let all the kickers take a penalty from a designated position like a soccer penalty kick?

But why not talk about this in the same breath as bans or citings? Isn't this just as bad as an illegal tackle (which sometimes are accidental)? The deliberate act of deceiving the referee to me should be a penalty that can be cited.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Maybe reverse the penalty? Bans and citing are clearly way out of proportion for me - but doubt kickers would risk reversing the pen for a negligible gain of a couple of metres. And the TMO can be watching out for it

Reversing would be good.

Although you say a couple of metres is negligible, they're really not when at the edge of the kicker's range or when the pressure's on. In the more extreme cases isn't this is exactly the kind of cynical "professional" cheating that the sin bin was introduced for?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Thats the point though if its so common and nothing gets done about it going forward then everyone should start doing it. And if everyone starts doing it then it will spiral out of control and make a mockery of the rules. If lance Armstrong argued that his steroids only helped him 1% does it not become doping anymore? Is some form of cheating acceptable but other forms not?

I can realize for myself that a ban seems outrageous for such a small offence. Its clear to me that it's a small offence and that the difference was marginal. But please try and understand dear forum users, cheating behaviour remains cheating behaviour and if there is no retroactive punishment given out then it can be manipulated. This is where WR clarity comes in again. Is only Owen Farrel allowed to do the no arm tackles or is it banned for everyone? The rules has to be applied to the letter of the law otherwise it gets abused why does some of you not get that? The game is over. I don't care about it. I care about someone stating an official position for offences such as this and the Farrel no arm tackle for future cases.

If not then where does it stop? Let's teach our children to spit in the faces of opposition players when the referee does not look. The performance gain from the other player not seeing would only be marginal. If enough people do it then it also becomes common as some of you has said. Does common cheating become more acceptable? That was certainly Lance Armstrong case when he said " but everyone was doing it".

Please understand I used extreme examples. It does not mean I condone it but rather it was used to prove a point. If you don't take it to the extreme some people can't grasp the issue that your are trying to raise.

You're extreme examples don't work here though, they're far too high risk, if you get caught doping or spitting you're out of the game for years or months. Being told to move the ball back is nothing in comparison.

A ban can't be issued here, he's nowhere near the first person caught on camera doing this on purpose, it'd be like banning someone for using hands in the ruck and getting away with it.

But why not talk about this in the same breath as bans or citings? Isn't this just as bad as an illegal tackle (which sometimes are accidental)?

No, one is putting another players physical wellbeing in danger, this isn't...

The deliberate act of deceiving the referee to me should be a penalty that can be cited.

That would result in 46 citations after every game based on players deliberately being offside alone...

This is so insignificant, less significant than a missed forward pass or obstruction, neither of which would ever bring about a citation. Reversing the penalty if caught is the thing to do, it'd stop it immediately once it happens in a high profile game. Banning a player? Nuts.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

it should never get to reversing it. just have the player move the ball back to the mark. If a referee would reverse a penalty without a directive from World Rugby he would lose the players instantly. No one would have a clue what was going on.

 

[Every Time Ref]

I'm with Alpha on this, not everything that constitutes cheating is banworthy. Otherwise you are just going to end up citing people until I'm starting for England FFS! (I mean, I'd back myself to do a better job than Ben Teo but I digress...)

This is getting the attention because it's current and yes it's dishonest but let's not blow it out of proportion. This happens all the time, with, let's be honest, minimal-to-negligible actual real world impact on the game this just happens to be the first occurrence that got traction on social media.

it should never get to reversing it. just have the player move the ball back to the mark. If a referee would reverse a penalty without a directive from World Rugby he would lose the players instantly. No one would have a clue what was going on.

To be clear, I am suggesting a WR Directive to reverse the penalty, not that refs should just start doing it off their own bat

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

it should never get to reversing it. just have the player move the ball back to the mark. If a referee would reverse a penalty without a directive from World Rugby he would lose the players instantly. No one would have a clue what was going on.

Yeah, I meant to write that it has to start with WR, the ref obviously can't take the reigns. I can't see it ever being that problematic though.

 

[Scotty]

It was impressive have far forward he got the ball. Though seen it 100 times players gaining abit of extra when the refs back is turned but seriously a bans? Get cited? Way to far IMO. The ref is there for that reason to make the decision and it is the ref that sets the mark. Its down to the ref to make sure he places the ball on it. I actually hope this gives the refs a scare that the ref, linesmen and TMO all missed it. So they focus on it.

You will always get players placing the ball forward, edging forward offside and hands in the ruck ect and getting away with it. Its not right and should be penalised but its the refs that missed it and the refs that allowed it.

 

[mania]

yeah its cheating. but its up to the ref and touchies to police this. it happens at every level of rugby. the refs should always be aware for this and should keep an eye out for it every kick.
i saw someone try this on wayneBarnes and he just laughed and rolled the ball back.
i'm a fan of reversing the penalty or nullifying the conversion. it would happen a couple of times and then it would stop

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Thats the point though if its so common and nothing gets done about it going forward then everyone should start doing it. And if everyone starts doing it then it will spiral out of control and make a mockery of the rules. If lance Armstrong argued that his steroids only helped him 1% does it not become doping anymore? Is some form of cheating acceptable but other forms not?

I can realize for myself that a ban seems outrageous for such a small offence. Its clear to me that it's a small offence and that the difference was marginal. But please try and understand dear forum users, cheating behaviour remains cheating behaviour and if there is no retroactive punishment given out then it can be manipulated. This is where WR clarity comes in again. Is only Owen Farrel allowed to do the no arm tackles or is it banned for everyone? The rules has to be applied to the letter of the law otherwise it gets abused why does some of you not get that? The game is over. I don't care about it. I care about someone stating an official position for offences such as this and the Farrel no arm tackle for future cases.

If not then where does it stop? Let's teach our children to spit in the faces of opposition players when the referee does not look. The performance gain from the other player not seeing would only be marginal. If enough people do it then it also becomes common as some of you has said. Does common cheating become more acceptable? That was certainly Lance Armstrong case when he said " but everyone was doing it".

Please understand I used extreme examples. It does not mean I condone it but rather it was used to prove a point. If you don't take it to the extreme some people can't grasp the issue that your are trying to raise.

Sure, but what if it has already got to the point where everyone is doing it? Do you just ban or cite or whatever a random player at a random point in time, out of nowhere? Probably better that you first announce that all players who do it will be cited from now on.

Reversing would be good.

Although you say a couple of metres is negligible, they're really not when at the edge of the kicker's range or when the pressure's on. In the more extreme cases isn't this is exactly the kind of cynical "professional" cheating that the sin bin was introduced for?

exactly. The sinbin isn't used enough for cynical play imo

It was impressive have far forward he got the ball. Though seen it 100 times players gaining abit of extra when the refs back is turned but seriously a bans? Get cited? Way to far IMO. The ref is there for that reason to make the decision and it is the ref that sets the mark. Its down to the ref to make sure he places the ball on it. I actually hope this gives the refs a scare that the ref, linesmen and TMO all missed it. So they focus on it.

You will always get players placing the ball forward, edging forward offside and hands in the ruck ect and getting away with it. Its not right and should be penalised but its the refs that missed it and the refs that allowed it.

nah the onus shouldn't be on the ref. That just encourages cheating and poor sportsmanship. What if you got away with eye gouging at the bottom of a ruck because nobody could see it? Fair game?

If it's spotted, then yeah do that. But this wasn't and to me it's bringing the game into disrepute, like @unrated is saying, if it becomes the norm then we have a problem. Why not let all the kickers take a penalty from a designated position like a soccer penalty kick?

But why not talk about this in the same breath as bans or citings? Isn't this just as bad as an illegal tackle (which sometimes are accidental)? The deliberate act of deceiving the referee to me should be a penalty that can be cited.

it is the norm.

In terms of making an example who would be the best player to choose? Maybe sexton? Personally I'd pick pollard to make an example of. Maybe ban him forever, that would set the best example.

 

[Scotty]

Sure, but what if it has already got to the point where everyone is doing it? Do you just ban or cite or whatever a random player at a random point in time, out of nowhere? Probably better that you first announce that all players who do it will be cited from now on.

exactly. The sinbin isn't used enough for cynical play imo

nah the onus shouldn't be on the ref. That just encourages cheating and poor sportsmanship. What if you got away with eye gouging at the bottom of a ruck because nobody could see it? Fair game?

it is the norm.

I wasnt saying its all on the ref, it should be penalised as it is a deliberate act even if its not dangerous. But for as long as refs are not hot on it people will try it and get away with it.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

do we have fines?....i cant remember, you hear about people getting ban's etc but cant remember fines, sting players $50k and they'll start thinking twice, its was pretty stupid too because of where he was, he was already well within his range and if anything made the angle worse, if he'd been given it where he ended up taking it he probably would have taken it back a few meters! just shows how natural it was for him.

...and comparing to sandpaper is just silly, sandpaper effected every ball for the rest of the match (until the new ball of course), much more egregious offence in my mind.

 

[mania]

do we have fines?.

rugby doesnt do fines usually and im glad. the top 1% earners wouldnt even care and could afford it with an hours earnings. other players in tier2 would struggle.
eg worldCup2007 when Samoan players got fined for wrong branded mouth guards. they could hardly afford to get there and worldRugby slammed them with big fines.
yet the same worldCup johnnyWilkinson got away with deliberate ball swapping. wilkos trainers got suspended but wilko who orchestrated and benefited from it never got fined. and he could afford as he was making millions at toulon

fines would be just another way of the man keeping tier2 down

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

rugby doesnt do fines usually and im glad. the top 1% earners wouldnt even care and could afford it with an hours earnings. other players in tier2 would struggle.
eg worldCup2007 when Samoan players got fined for wrong branded mouth guards. they could hardly afford to get there and worldRugby slammed them with big fines.
yet the same worldCup johnnyWilkinson got away with deliberate ball swapping. wilkos trainers got suspended but wilko who orchestrated and benefited from it never got fined. and he could afford as he was making millions at toulon

fines would be just another way of the man keeping tier2 down

yeah someone mentioned a 50k fine which would put any MLR based american player in the red for the year

 

[Kiwiwomble]

to clarify, fines are almost never uniform throughout all levels of sport, i dont imagine the same fine would be applied to a tier ones player and a club rugby player, a little common sense please

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

to clarify, fines are almost never uniform throughout all levels of sport, i dont imagine the same fine would be applied to a tier ones player and a club rugby player, a little common sense please

well i think it would be a little unfair to fine players playing in the same competition different amounts

i was referring to an american player playing for the national team. If he (all of our kickers play in Europe ATM so it's hypothetical) and Barrett both did the same infraction at the world cup I think it would make sense to fine them the same since they are doing it in the same competition.