[2018 Rugby Championship] Round 2: New Zealand v Australia (25/08/2018)

[ncurd]

I agree in some part, I think its been way too long since we've played them last. And this game is certainly at least a year too late for when both teams were at their most competetive (that's Englands fault).
As noted I only advocate a mandatory game between the top 2 teams if it hasn't occured naturally.
However in the time since we've played NZ last we've played
SA - 5 times (includes a 3 game tour to SA)
Australia - 7 times (includes a 3 game tour to Aus and RWC)
Argentina - 4 times (includes a 2 game tour to Arg)
The last time had a gap this long was 1985 to 1991, my main argument on this front is we should be playing every other year.
4 years is too long.

 

[All Black]

I never said anything about registered players...

Yeah this word in bold might be hard to comprehend as clearly evident. I did say I'd like to add.

I'll also add a small country with a population of only 4 million where Soccer has more playing numbers.

 

[Nubiwan]

Yeah this word in bold might be hard to comprehend as clearly evident. I did say I'd like to add.

Yes, point taken - I did see that, but got carried away trying to drive home my point. Apologies for that!

I would ask this, because I honestly do not know the answer. How many of New Zealands registered footballers (soccer) started out playing rugby? Or have at least been exposed to it? My guess is 90%, but I have no idea. Just my guess.

A youth in England gets exposed to football 100%, and maybe, just maybe 5% of them will get to play rugby at some point. Even 5% is a high estimate.

 

[Nubiwan]

Playing numbers never tell a full story....England's (and by in large Britains) top athletes are spreads far wide across other sports. TBH considering the emphasis on Football it is wonder how we don't excel at that but everything else it is entirely.about making sure you pick up the best of the rest.

As to ABs winning so much it massively harms the RC as a brand. The ABs in general....it's overrated currently. They struggled against the Lions, AIs last year they played France, Wales and Scotland (only the Scotland game was a tight score). And they've not played SA this RC

So what have they actually done? Beaten an Australia side that is very much been on a slide and showed little course correction like SA. And beaten not the best NH teams.

Ireland are the team they need to measure themselves against and to a lesser extent England (who need to get their act together fast), SA, Scotland and Wales. Honestly giving Australia a right kicking is nothing to brag home about.

Well, Ireland beat Australia over 3 tests, but the ABS have rather dismantled them. You can hardly compare the two.

England may have given the ABs a game a year or so back, but on the evidence of the recent SA tour, they have gone backwards IMHO.

 

[All Black]

I would ask this, because I honestly do not know the answer. How many of New Zealands registered footballers (soccer) started out playing rugby? Or have at least been exposed to it? My guess is 90%, but I have no idea. Just my guess.

Sorry mate but I don't know. I've only heard, from mainly soccer fans, boast that they have more people playing soccer in NZ than there is rugby players.

From my experience, soccer was the game we played first at school. Can't remember my age exactly but I don't think I was into sport at 5 years of age. We didnt start playing rugby till later in primary school, so around 8-10 years of age. It's changed now as primary schools do have this thing called 'ripper rugby' where kids get into rugby basics. I'm not sure of the ages they start getting into that. You definitely hear about the All Blacks at a very young age and all they think of is the haka.

 

[Nubiwan]

Sorry mate but I don't know. I've only heard, from mainly soccer fans, boast that they have more people playing soccer in NZ than there is rugby players.

From my experience, soccer was the game we played first at school. Can't remember my age exactly but I don't think I was into sport at 5 years of age. We didnt start playing rugby till later in primary school, so around 8-10 years of age. It's changed now as primary schools do have this thing called 'ripper rugby' where kids get into rugby basics. I'm not sure of the ages they start getting into that. You definitely hear about the All Blacks at a very young age and all they think of is the haka.

Ka Mate!!!!!

 

[mania]

I would ask this, because I honestly do not know the answer. How many of New Zealands registered footballers (soccer) started out playing rugby? Or have at least been exposed to it? My guess is 90%, but I have no idea. Just my guess.

the division between football vs rugby players is quite distinct.
my son went to play football for a season and there were no rugby players that we recognised.
your vision of NZ only playing rugby is flawed. theres lots of other sports played as well and kids have a myriad of choices for what to play.
i will agree though that our development paths are pretty awesome, but thats due to all the volunteers we have at grassroots.
rugby in NZ isnt a religion . in NZ its small enough to be run like a family. like the Corleones

 

[Kiwiwomble]

my memory of school boy sports was very rugby focused, at a guess there were upwards of 20 rugby teams in my school over the five years and there cant have been more than 5 or six football teams...

i'm a kiwi that's getting a bit bored with playing and beating the same teams each year, not really any novelty or occasion around playing RSA or Aussie anymore

the first scores i look up on the weekend if i havent watched arent the AB's they're Otago or Otago Boys High as their games actually mean something

 

[Iron Lion Zion]

Just going to put this here for male sport playing numbers in New Zealand. Also for the record I heard that kids in New Zeland play football first before rugby by 3 - 1

Males
Sport 2016 2017 Change
Rugby union 23,800 23,151

2.7%
Basketball 15,089 17,664

17.1%
Football 17,111 16,799

1.8%
Cricket 8,121 7,873

3.1%
Hockey 6,614 6,752

2.1%
Athletics 7,086 6,587

7.0%

You know you are the greatest sports team in all of sports history when the only thing left is for the vultures to pick at is try to blame refs, blame demographics, blame statistics, blame soft opposition. What are you trying to say? that the All Blacks have had soft opposition for well over 100+ years?

The only thing that is guaranteed in your lifetime is - Death, Taxes and All Black victories. Hope those Springboks are spiced up and ready, us kiwis enjoy a bit of biltong.

 

[Derpus]

And made all the better by the comparative rarity.

Over a 13 year period McCaw played against Australia 37 times. Zzzzzzzz.

Sometimes less really is more.

I would give my arm and leg not to have to play them so often.

 

[Derpus]

Just going to put this here for male sport playing numbers in New Zealand. Also for the record I heard that kids in New Zeland play football first before rugby by 3 - 1

Males
Sport 2016 2017 Change
Rugby union 23,800 23,151

2.7%
Basketball 15,089 17,664

17.1%
Football 17,111 16,799

1.8%
Cricket 8,121 7,873

3.1%
Hockey 6,614 6,752

2.1%
Athletics 7,086 6,587

7.0%

You know you are the greatest sports team in all of sports history when the only thing left is for the vultures to pick at is try to blame refs, blame demographics, blame statistics, blame soft opposition. What are you trying to say? that the All Blacks have had soft opposition for well over 100+ years?

The only thing that is guaranteed in your lifetime is - Death, Taxes and All Black victories. Hope those Springboks are spiced up and ready, us kiwis enjoy a bit of biltong.

I'm confused ay. This started out as a conversation as to why the All Black dominance is boring and bad for the game. We wern't trying to blame it on any one cause (or i certainly wasn't).

The reason they are so good is because they have a brilliant development system for coaches and players alike.

 

[Nubiwan]

the division between football vs rugby players is quite distinct.
my son went to play football for a season and there were no rugby players that we recognised.
your vision of NZ only playing rugby is flawed. theres lots of other sports played as well and kids have a myriad of choices for what to play.
i will agree though that our development paths are pretty awesome, but thats due to all the volunteers we have at grassroots.
rugby in NZ isnt a religion . in NZ its small enough to be run like a family. like the Corleones

Ah but I did not say only playing rugby, I said a greater number of NZ kids will be exposed to rugby. Show me a New Zealander never heard of the all blacks. In my hometown in the uk, predominantly a football town, I can almost guarantee 99.9% of the population, let alone kids, never touched a rugby ball. These are not excuses, as some are seeming to label these replies, rather reasons any country excels at what is considered their national sport.

 

[Nubiwan]

my memory of school boy sports was very rugby focused, at a guess there were upwards of 20 rugby teams in my school over the five years and there cant have been more than 5 or six football teams...

i'm a kiwi that's getting a bit bored with playing and beating the same teams each year, not really any novelty or occasion around playing RSA or Aussie anymore

the first scores i look up on the weekend if i havent watched arent the AB's they're Otago or Otago Boys High as their games actually mean something

In stark contrast, my school had a rugby team for each year (6). There may have been 2nd xvs but I somehow doubt it. Perhaps in 6th form. We had one football team when you got to 6th form, so predominantly a rugby school. I'd suggest this was common in most of England's rugby schools. Certainly in the north west.

In my town, and surrounding area, there were perhaps 30 such schools. In the same area there were likely 300 schools that offered up football only. The rugby schools tended to be grammar schools or private schools which in itself further diluted the quality of players.

The truth is, in urban footballing towns in England, few people give a crap about Rugby, other than those got to enjoy playing it.

 

[ncurd]

I'll place some contrast together
,
In a medium sized town in south west England which has a strong rugby union following,

Cricket - Year can barely can put an 11 together, me and one other person played it outside of school. House cup had to merge years together to get enough players. 1 lesson on the sport in the entirity of school.

Rugby Union - Year can put a team together with some competition, most in team played outside of school. No lessons on rugby due to physical nature and mix-gendered lessons. In general you could not take up rugby until the age of 12.

Football - Year was south west school champions competing on national level (NO ONE went professional although one came close). Huge competion to get on the team. As well as 8 football lessons a year well over 66% of boys played it for an hour in breaks. As well as persistently at home and in youth teams.

Don't care what you say its NZ's national sport and its ingrained from a very young age, same as the Canada Ice Hockey example. Playing numbers only tell part of the story.

NZ are superb no doubt about it but lets not try and **** about with the reason why they come from that position of strength. If it was the no.1 sport in any nation with those higher player numbers they'd probably dominate even more than the ABs do.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I'll place some contrast together
,
In a medium sized town in south west England which has a strong rugby union following,

Cricket - Year can barely can put an 11 together, me and one other person played it outside of school. House cup had to merge years together to get enough players. 1 lesson on the sport in the entirity of school.

Rugby Union - Year can put a team together with some competition, most in team played outside of school. No lessons on rugby due to physical nature and mix-gendered lessons. In general you could not take up rugby until the age of 12.

Football - Year was south west school champions competing on national level (NO ONE went professional although one came close). Huge competion to get on the team. As well as 8 football lessons a year well over 66% of boys played it for an hour in breaks. As well as persistently at home and in youth teams.

Don't care what you say its NZ's national sport and its ingrained from a very young age, same as the Canada Ice Hockey example. Playing numbers only tell part of the story.

NZ are superb no doubt about it but lets not try and **** about with the reason why they come from that position of strength. If it was the no.1 sport in any nation with those higher player numbers they'd probably dominate even more than the ABs do.

I'd like to add to this in that we must also take into consideration their administrators and coaching. In SA there are way too many reports of maladministration and poor coaching while our best coaches are all being lured away to other countries same as the players. NZ have managed to keep a good pool of coaches in NZ and even have some sort of succession plan in place when the big kahuna leaves.

 

[All Black]

I think all those coaches go to the NH.

NZ, South Africa and Australian coaches have all helped immensely to improve rugby in the NH.

Its the players from the SH as well that helps out just by playing there.

One thing that no one has mentioned about the All Blacks is their polynesian players. Polynesians are built for this game. You can't just say any country with the history, passion and infrastructure that NZ has, will be as dominant as the All Blacks. I disagree there because we have been fortunate to be close to polynesian talent. If Japan had everything we had, they still wouldnt have had polynesians and that includes Maoris of course. Some of these polynesians did not come through the NZ rugby system at a young age. They came from the islands. Fiji can play 7s and they never learnt their rugby here.

 

[Nubiwan]

In stark contrast, my school had a rugby team for each year (6). There may have been 2nd xvs but I somehow doubt it. Perhaps in 6th form. We had one football team when you got to 6th form, so predominantly a rugby school. I'd suggest this was common in most of England's rugby schools. Certainly in the north west.

In my town, and surrounding area, there were perhaps 30 such schools. In the same area there were likely 300 schools that offered up football only. The rugby schools tended to be grammar schools or private schools which in itself further diluted the quality of players.

The truth is, in urban footballing towns in England, few people give a crap about Rugby, other than those got to enjoy playing it.

As a matter of some irony to the conversation, 20 or so years after I left, my all boys, all rugby grammar school went comprehensive (mixed sex - as far as I know), got a new name, and dropped rugby altogether, to be replaced by football.

From their future football team came the one and only Steven Gerrard. How mad is that?

 

[smartcooky]

Don't care what you say its NZ's national sport and its ingrained from a very young age, same as the Canada Ice Hockey example. Playing numbers only tell part of the story.

NZ are superb no doubt about it but lets not try and **** about with the reason why they come from that position of strength. If it was the no.1 sport in any nation with those higher player numbers they'd probably dominate even more than the ABs do.

Be mindful of outliers when you make statements of certainty like that.

Rugby is the National sport of Madagascar, and has been since they started playing in the 1890's. They have 410 rugby clubs, over 22,500 registered adult players, and the sport is extensively covered in the national print media. They regularly get 15,000 plus crowds to club games, and the Mahamasina Municipal Stadium sells out for test matches, attracting crowds upward of 30,000. In the Division 1B Final of the Africa Cup (which was played in Madagaskar), 40,000 fans were there to see them beat Namibia........

Madagaskar is currently ranked #41

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Be mindful of outliers when you make statements of certainty like that.

Rugby is the National sport of Madagascar, and has been since they started playing in the 1890's. They have 410 rugby clubs, over 22,500 registered adult players, and the sport is extensively covered in the national print media. They regularly get 15,000 plus crowds to club games, and the Mahamasina Municipal Stadium sells out for test matches, attracting crowds upward of 30,000. In the Division 1B Final of the Africa Cup (which was played in Madagaskar), 40,000 fans were there to see them beat Namibia........

Madagaskar is currently ranked #41

GDP per capita of New Zealand - 39,500 USD
GDP per capita of Madagascar - 401 USD

That's an awful pedantic straw man there!

 

[Derpus]

I think all those coaches go to the NH.

NZ, South Africa and Australian coaches have all helped immensely to improve rugby in the NH.

Its the players from the SH as well that helps out just by playing there.

One thing that no one has mentioned about the All Blacks is their polynesian players. Polynesians are built for this game. You can't just say any country with the history, passion and infrastructure that NZ has, will be as dominant as the All Blacks. I disagree there because we have been fortunate to be close to polynesian talent. If Japan had everything we had, they still wouldnt have had polynesians and that includes Maoris of course. Some of these polynesians did not come through the NZ rugby system at a young age. They came from the islands. Fiji can play 7s and they never learnt their rugby here.

Sensitive topic though. I've found most kiwi's smack me down when i raise this as a potential advantage (along with the haka potentially giving them a psychological edge). 'Straya certainly benefits from the Islands. Toutai Kefu is Tongan. The soon to be best THP in the world's nick name is 'Tongan Thor'.

It would be cool if respective rugby unions could collaborate to improve the game over all. NZRU obviously have it down, they could collaberate with smaller or developing unions to help them implement decent systems early to increase the number of competitive nations internationally ('straya could use some of that). I think, for example, the rapidly developing US would benefit from this.