[2017 Rugby Championship] Round 4: New Zealand v South Africa (16/09/2017)

[Icemn]

lol

I cant wait for the return fixture in Cape Town. That will be a home game for the AB as well as they have more supporters in Cape Town than what they have in the entire NZ

Newlands will be painted black...

Another 50 point hiding on its way...

"i see a red (stadium) door and I want it painted black..."

 

[TRF_heineken]

I'm actually in quite good spirits. Didn't watch the game as I would rather watch my son at play. Heard we got hammered and thought..

We were going to lose anyway. Whether its 20 or 30 or the eventual 57 matters little to anything short term.

What NZ did to us was a huge favor IMO as I was starting to get the feeling we in SA were plastering over cracks and Coetzee was getting the idea he could afford to go at this test rugby business half tilt. Surely we will be forced to address our selections and approach again? I feel we were slowly drifting away from what looked like a 'new' approach and one better suited to our current crop of players. Are we still stuck with AC and his pet projects? He seems defiant in the media. Chop.

And then the memes are priceless.

I will catch up soon enough but I think I have a good idea of what to expect as I expected as much even if I grossly underestimated the eventual margin.

Yeah, I think that we didn't manage to score a single point is what ticks me off. Bookies said the AB's will win by 19+.

But to be perfectly honest, we were so poor, it's hard to fathom that we could make any comeback. Unless there are wholesale changes happening, I can see us losing both home games.

I think one guy that has to come in, is Rohan Janse van Rensburg. He picked up another MotM award on the weekend for the Lions in the CC. He's in hot form!

Another guy to look at is Kwagga Smith.

And if we look at what Jean De Villiers, Naas Botha and Nick Mallet said after the game, is that the Bok team is lacking players with X-factor. Mallet said that NZ has at least 10 guys in their team with X-factor, but he said the current bok team doesn't have 1.

JDV said that it doesn't help we play this expansive All Black type of play against the All Blacks. They have mastered it, and we are still learning the tricks, and we got schooled.

As for wingers, I think it's time Ruan Combrink, Seabelo Senatla and Dillyn Leyds are brought in to show what they can do. Pity that Jamba Ulengo is still out injured.

 

[sharkfan]

Well at least we didn't lose 75-0...or 76-0 like England did once!

 

[smartcooky]

Well at least we didn't lose 75-0...or 76-0 like England did once!

Yeah. But don't lose heart

I have a little two-question quiz for you

1. Can you remember which year Australia beat South Africa by a score of 49-0 ?

2. Can you remember who won the RWC the year after that match?

 

[sharkfan]

OK,Steve-O. First let me say, I'm hearing ya brother. I think the reverse racism that is happening in your country with regards to sports team selections is every bit as vile as the selection policy under Apartheid.

That said, do you really not have a black right wing in South Africa better that Rhule? Really? Could you not get a release for JP Pieteresen? How about Dillyn Leyds? Lwazi Mvovo? Lionel Mapoe? Cornal Hendricks?

At least these guys can TACKLE!!!

Yeah what on earth happened to JP he isn't that old yet and can still play for the Boks. Perhaps Coetzee can sent Hougaard back to Europe and bring back JP. Dillon Leyds cannot tackle either, Lwazi Mvovo had a shocker against Ireland last year. Still didn't put his hand up for a bok jersey this year. Lionel Mapoe is more of a centre and not up to international standard. I can't remember Cornal Hendricks being a exceptionally good defender either.

 

[sharkfan]

Yeah. But don't lose heart

I have a little two-question quiz for you

1. Can you remember which year Australia beat South Africa by a score of 49-0 ?

2. Can you remember who won the RWC the year after that match?

Answer to first question is in 2006 and answer to second question is we won the World Cup. Yes that loss wasn't good and the world cup triumph a year later, shows you how quickly things can change. Actually that 49-0 drubbing was almost worse than this weekend, because that was an experienced Bok team with the likes of Percy Montgomery, Os Du Randt, John Smit and Victor Matfield playing.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Yeah what on earth happened to JP he isn't that old yet and can still play for the Boks. Perhaps Coetzee can sent Hougaard back to Europe and bring back JP. Dillon Leyds cannot tackle either, Lwazi Mvovo had a shocker against Ireland last year. Still didn't put his hand up for a bok jersey this year. Lionel Mapoe is more of a centre and not up to international standard. I can't remember Cornal Hendricks being a exceptionally good defender either.

Cornal Hendricks chances of ever playing Bok Rugby is hanging on a very fine thread. He can't pass the fitness tests at the unions, and can't be then contracted to play. This has happened at both the Bulls and the Kings in this year, so I think we should take him out of the equation completely.

If we want a more defensively secure backline, then we have to look at Ruan Combrink as the one winger and I don't know who on the other wing. Maybe Warwick Gelant?

Actually, I think Gelant should be one of the guys that should feature in one or both of the next 2 tests...

 

[User1245]

OK,Steve-O. First let me say, I'm hearing ya brother. I think the reverse racism that is happening in your country with regards to sports team selections is every bit as vile as the selection policy under Apartheid.

That said, do you really not have a black right wing in South Africa better that Rhule? Really? Could you not get a release for JP Pieteresen? How about Dillyn Leyds? Lwazi Mvovo? Lionel Mapoe? Cornal Hendricks?

At least these guys can TACKLE!!!

It's seems that simple but when you add some variables (form, experience, and talent) you can see why it becomes a game of musical chairs where some deserving black/coloured players are possibly even missing out.

For example the coach is probably sticking with Jesse Kiel mostly because he has Test experience, although Am probably desires a crack after a great season but has no Test experience, therefore Combrinck misses out. Being a white wing is a serious career limiting move. Anyway so you need to stick an ethnic black on the wing. He dropped Mvovo because he was terrible under the high ball against Ireland. Mapoe? Nope not an ethnic black... JP Pietersen!? Nope not an ethnic black and over the hill. But you need an ethnic black because Skosan is on the other wing and is not an ethnic black! Darn those slightly less than brown guys! (See how well I know my races!). Leyds? Not an ethnic black either. I'm sure you get my point. God forbid Kolisi gets injured, then there'll need to some more shuffling to balance the race books.

We already wasted last year with Stick being forced in as backline coach despite having no track record. Sounds like a lovely environment to be in. Sprinkle the general state of SA on top and its sounds like a good place to spend your limited career at!

Anyway putting all that aside, it's against the bloody laws set down by World Rugby! Who here disagrees with that bye-law? Since we're so special that the laws don't apply to us let's make it work to our advantage and field 16 players.

NZ and Australia not standing up to this is cooking their own goose IMO. Now that Europe is an option going forward I foresee SA going that route to have something in their advantage (money) to try keep players from leaving. SANZAAR partnership does not look as attractive.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

lol

I cant wait for the return fixture in Cape Town. That will be a home game for the AB as well as they have more supporters in Cape Town than what they have in the entire NZ

Newlands will be painted black...

Another 50 point hiding on its way...

"i see a red (stadium) door and I want it painted black..."

That is true, sad and still baffling.

 

[sharkfan]

Well since we have to get an ethnic black winger, Coetzee can give Makazole Mapimpi a chance.

It's seems that simple but when you add some variables (form, experience, and talent) you can see why it becomes a game of musical chairs where some deserving black/coloured players are possibly even missing out.

For example the coach is probably sticking with Jesse Kiel mostly because he has Test experience, although Am probably desires a crack after a great season but has no Test experience, therefore Combrinck misses out. Being a white wing is a serious career limiting move. Anyway so you need to stick an ethnic black on the wing. He dropped Mvovo because he was terrible under the high ball against Ireland. Mapoe? Nope not an ethnic black... JP Pietersen!? Nope not an ethnic black and over the hill. But you need an ethnic black because Skosan is on the other wing and is not an ethnic black! Darn those slightly less than brown guys! (See how well I know my races!). Leyds? Not an ethnic black either. I'm sure you get my point. God forbid Kolisi gets injured, then there'll need to some more shuffling to balance the race books.

We already wasted last year with Stick being forced in as backline coach despite having no track record. Sounds like a lovely environment to be in. Sprinkle the general state of SA on top and its sounds like a good place to spend your limited career at!

Anyway putting all that aside, it's against the bloody laws set down by World Rugby! Who here disagrees with that bye-law? Since we're so special that the laws don't apply to us let's make it work to our advantage and field 16 players.

NZ and Australia not standing up to this is cooking their own goose IMO. Now that Europe is an option going forward I foresee SA going that route to have something in their advantage (money) to try keep players from leaving. SANZAAR partnership does not look as attractive.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Well since we have to get an ethnic black winger, Coetzee can give Makazole Mapimpi a chance.

Mapimpi, Senatla, Ulengo. I think they are the only ethnic black wingers that could be in contention right now. Although, Ulengo is still injured.

But that new winger at the Sharks, Sibu Nkosi has been the up and coming player to watch for me. And he can actually tackle...

 

[Durbanite]

If the winger has to be black it must be Mapimpi or Sbu Nkosi. Mapimpi has been damn impressive ever since his border days and Sbu is a great wing, a solid step, good support runner and best of all he is not shy of physicality.

In a perfect world I would rather Mapimpi stay with the Cheetahs to bolster their chances in the P14 and Sbu should get more experience but they could both perform if called upon I have no doubt of that.

If we get two new wings then I'd like to see Combrinck at 15, if we get Gelant/Coetzee at 15 then Combrinck has to be on the wing surely.

I think Serf is still a good bet, and the better option at 12 out of our current squad.

9&10 is an obvious problem area, yet again I do not see AC straying from a combination of Jaintjies/Cronje/Hougaard/Pollard but after the RC I hope to see a shakeup in the halfback pairing. I'm okay with Pollard starting at 10 against the Aussies but I'd much rather hinge my bets on EJ for now, I'm still unconvinced at Pollard's readiness to play test match rugby at 10 and in absence of a solid SR season, the only way that'll change is if he gets game time to prove me wrong.

RJVR has become the new Jaco Kriel, he has more then earned a place in the bok setup and I think he should take Jessie's place in the midfield.

Cas at 8 has been so quiet, it's the perfect time to let Dan have a go imo, he would inject a lot of energy into the forwards.
PSDT should likewise start ahead of Mostert for the same reason except we already know this with his last start.

We have some struggles at tighthead now without Coenie but Dreyer should be able to lift his game adequately after they give him some attention on the practice field.

 

[mania]

so now SA is leaning what the rest of the rugby world hasnt yet.
if youre gonna use a rush defence, u also better rush back into D when the ball gets turned over.
standing flat on D and Offence means you have to have a lot of foot speed to get back into position when changing between attack and defence.
ABs have the speed to do this.
in AC's defence his hands are pretty tied trying to select a team within the SA govts quota's.
is rhule the best wing? prob no. does he meet the quota criteria, well hell yeah, c'mon in!! what could possibly go wrong? queue 57-0

 

[mania]

poor AC. who would want to coach the boks? luckily there are a lot of die hard bokke lovers with the correct skills to stand up and coach, because no sane non Safrican would, in their right mind, ever take on such a politically land mined duty.
the quota's have been increased in ?2016? and i reckon theyve gone too far from trying to add balance to the team to going to the other extreme and now disenfarnchising the other way.

good luck SA

 

[JohnKA]

so now SA is leaning what the rest of the rugby world hasnt yet.
if youre gonna use a rush defence, u also better rush back into D when the ball gets turned over.
standing flat on D and Offence means you have to have a lot of foot speed to get back into position when changing between attack and defence.
ABs have the speed to do this.
in AC's defence his hands are pretty tied trying to select a team within the SA govts quota's.
is rhule the best wing? prob no. does he meet the quota criteria, well hell yeah, c'mon in!! what could possibly go wrong? queue 57-0

What makes it worse is there is even other non white wings better than Rhule , why does he get picked ? only AC knows i guess

 

[User1245]

Well since we have to get an ethnic black winger, Coetzee can give Makazole Mapimpi a chance.

Mapimpi, Senatla, Ulengo. I think they are the only ethnic black wingers that could be in contention right now. Although, Ulengo is still injured.

But that new winger at the Sharks, Sibu Nkosi has been the up and coming player to watch for me. And he can actually tackle...

All those players are untested so who knows. Rhule has more Super Rugby experience so maybe that put him ahead. Those very talented players don't deserve to be cast into the deep end because of a broken policy.

The point I was illustrating in this isolated scenario is where balancing the race books can have knock on effects to other players of colour. E.g. Swap Rhule with Combrinck, but need another black player in so swap Am with Kriel. However Am has little Test or Super Rugby experience. RC is the toughest comp in the world and that back line would be light on Test experience so let's say Am sinks, so Kriel needs to come back in to shore that aspect up. It can't be a straight swap because there'll be too many whites so Rhule or whoever has to come back in for Combrinck. There could very well be a deserved coloured player but they get leapfrogged by an ethnic black player. Multiple players from various races will be negatively impacted.

It was an illustration for our international buddies who are wondering why the Springboks are up **** creek and why they won't be coming back any time soon, unless something is done about this ridiculous policy. Remember this is not a soft target. SA Rugby was banned by the ANC from applying to host the RWC because it wasn't meeting the quota. It later retracted but the line was drawn in the sand.

What I'm unsure of is if they don't care that the policy is against a World Rugby bye-law which technically should penalise South Africa in some way? Once you're aware of it surely not publicly condemning it is condoning it? Logically it does not compute. Bruce_ma_goose even said quotas was a concept designed by the media! He now has the facts but will stay silent because the only other reasonable reaction is to condemn it.

If the international community really feels that the Springboks deserve it then let's put an asterisk attached to the bye-law saying "*except for South Africa." Then we can all stop masquerading about wondering why the team is going to crap.

 

[mdaclarke]

All those players are untested so who knows. Rhule has more Super Rugby experience so maybe that put him ahead. Those very talented players don't deserve to be cast into the deep end because of a broken policy.

The point I was illustrating in this isolated scenario is where balancing the race books can have knock on effects to other players of colour. E.g. Swap Rhule with Combrinck, but need another black player in so swap Am with Kriel. However Am has little Test or Super Rugby experience. RC is the toughest comp in the world and that back line would be light on Test experience so let's say Am sinks, so Kriel needs to come back in to shore that aspect up. It can't be a straight swap because there'll be too many whites so Rhule or whoever has to come back in for Combrinck. There could very well be a deserved coloured player but they get leapfrogged by an ethnic black player. Multiple players from various races will be negatively impacted.

It was an illustration for our international buddies who are wondering why the Springboks are up **** creek and why they won't be coming back any time soon, unless something is done about this ridiculous policy. Remember this is not a soft target. SA Rugby was banned by the ANC from applying to host the RWC because it wasn't meeting the quota. It later retracted but the line was drawn in the sand.

What I'm unsure of is if they don't care that the policy is against a World Rugby bye-law which technically should penalise South Africa in some way? Once you're aware of it surely not publicly condemning it is condoning it? Logically it does not compute. Bruce_ma_goose even said quotas was a concept designed by the media! He now has the facts but will stay silent because the only other reasonable reaction is to condemn it.

If the international community really feels that the Springboks deserve it then let's put an asterisk attached to the bye-law saying "*except for South Africa." Then we can all stop masquerading about wondering why the team is going to crap.

I don't understand why IRB and the IOC tolerate it. It is damaging international rugby. Rugby needs a strong Springboks.

I do feel that the 30 cap rule needs to go. They should just pick the best players whereever they are. Like Brazil in Football.

 

[mdaclarke]

The sad thing is that the decline of the Springboks is entirely self inflicted.
Pick the best players, regardless of where they play or any other political interference.
I can't imagine Brazil in football only picking players from the Brazilian league. South Africa doesn't have the economy to compete, the payers are going to go north, may as well accept it. If they do then they have the talent pool to challenge the All Blacks again.

Also I feel that International rugby needs a strong Springboks, it is not like Football where there are dozens and dozens of world class teams and rivalries. Rugby needs all the strong international teams that it can get. There should be no bigger rivalry that the Boks and All Blacks, but the rivalry is dying, that is bad for rugby.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

^^^ this

world rugby needs all the strong teams it can get...i much preferred watching the second Aussie game where they came out firing than this game

im sure most of us will always watch our team whenever we can there are a lot of "fans" that will switch off if they get bored

 

[AM_Bokke]

The sad thing is that the decline of the Springboks is entirely self inflicted.
Pick the best players, regardless of where they play or any other political interference.
I can't imagine Brazil in football only picking players from the Brazilian league. South Africa doesn't have the economy to compete, the payers are going to go north, may as well accept it. If they do then they have the talent pool to challenge the All Blacks again.

Also I feel that International rugby needs a strong Springboks, it is not like Football where there are dozens and dozens of world class teams and rivalries. Rugby needs all the strong international teams that it can get. There should be no bigger rivalry that the Boks and All Blacks, but the rivalry is dying, that is bad for rugby.

This is not true. SA's economy is four times larger than NZ's. It is not the country's economy that prevents SA from having a rugby team that is competitive with the All Blacks.

The problem with the competitiveness of world rugby is that rugby is the most popular sport in only one country: New Zealand.

Lastly, with regards to selection, if SA wants to have a rugby brand that can compete with the All Blacks brand financially then they should do what the All Blacks have done and keep very close, domestic control of their players.