[2017 Rugby Championship] Round 4: New Zealand v South Africa (16/09/2017)

[sharkfan]

Look everybody is really negative and depressed right now, but this was only the first defeat of the year, the Boks are still second on the RC standings, and still ranked third in the world rankings. The good thing is that some passengers were exposed and this Bok team realised that although they improved this year, they still have a very long way to go. This is what measuring yourself against the best means. It gives you an idea of where you are and how much you have to improve.

 

[mania]

Look everybody is really negative and depressed right now, but this was only the first defeat of the year.

well said sharkFan. this is a blip in the boks road to success. this doesnt define the boks.
when they pick themselves up off the ground and bring to the ABs on home soil in a couple of weeks, that'll be a defining moment. i cant see the boks players taking this lying down. ABs need to do more prep now than hey have so far cos boks are gonna come back and play nothing to lose rugby. thats a dangerous boks beast.

 

[sharkfan]

well said sharkFan. this is a blip in the boks road to success. this doesnt define the boks.
when they pick themselves up off the ground and bring to the ABs on home soil in a couple of weeks, that'll be a defining moment. i cant see the boks players taking this lying down. ABs need to do more prep now than hey have so far cos boks are gonna come back and play nothing to lose rugby. thats a dangerous boks beast.

I hope you are right Mania. We all need a good competitive game in Cape Town, like it is supposed to be. Not another boring blowout, we all had enough of it

 

[TRF_heineken]

Look everybody is really negative and depressed right now, but this was only the first defeat of the year, the Boks are still second on the RC standings, and still ranked third in the world rankings. The good thing is that some passengers were exposed and this Bok team realised that although they improved this year, they still have a very long way to go. This is what measuring yourself against the best means. It gives you an idea of where you are and how much you have to improve.

But that's the thing that's bugging me even more. This raises more questions than answers.

Was France really that poor when they toured us?
Was Argentina really that poor in the first 2 tests?
Were we just lucky to get a draw against Australia?
but more importantly,
Did we improve from last year?? Or are we slowly going back into the decline again as we did last year?

What's a very worrying issue for me is that we still have only won 1 game away from home since AC took over, and that was against Argentina. It's a very worrying prospect ahead of the EOYT.

Anyways, it seems like AC will call on more NH based players for the next 2 tests. I hope the following guys will be called up:
Bismarck Du Plessis
JP Pietersen
Duane Vermeulen
Francois Louw

 

[The Jones Boy]

I'm struggling to see the difference between Pieter De Villiers and Alastair Coetzee in their selection policies and post match assessment.
Apart from the trophies, is that a fair call?

 

[TRF_heineken]

I'm struggling to see the difference between Pieter De Villiers and Alastair Coetzee in their selection policies and post match assessment.
Apart from the trophies, is that a fair call?

No, Pieter De Villiers, actually had Springbok quality players...

 

[unrated]

But that's the thing that's bugging me even more. This raises more questions than answers.

Was France really that poor when they toured us?
Was Argentina really that poor in the first 2 tests?
Were we just lucky to get a draw against Australia?
but more importantly,
Did we improve from last year?? Or are we slowly going back into the decline again as we did last year?

What's a very worrying issue for me is that we still have only won 1 game away from home since AC took over, and that was against Argentina. It's a very worrying prospect ahead of the EOYT.

Anyways, it seems like AC will call on more NH based players for the next 2 tests. I hope the following guys will be called up:
Bismarck Du Plessis
JP Pietersen
Duane Vermeulen
Francois Louw

And Marcel Coetzee
And Francois Steyn.
Ruan Combrinck
Cobus Reinach (atleast in reserves)
Kwagga smith



Whether you like him or not these classy players wil not allow 57-0 to happen.
I was also very Iratated by AC brushing of this big loss. It's bad people should not downplay it. AC also said het doesn't car what twitter has to say.

Twitter=social media = representation of people of South Africa = Ac is saying he does not care about the opinion of South Africans only Saru who pays him.

Wtf man apologize don't just say you have no excuses.

 

[SomeOke]

I'm struggling to see the difference between Pieter De Villiers and Alastair Coetzee in their selection policies and post match assessment.
Apart from the trophies, is that a fair call?

I think AC is a great guy, I'd love him as a father in law or an uncle or something. That doesn't mean I think he's competent.
Where as De Villiers was a twit.

 

[JohnKA]

Yes we need to have a look at the oversea players but come on , we all know that we can select a better team than the current one even while just looking at home players , the quota system is there yes the 30 cap thing is there but we can still select a better team than the one we have now and still be in the quota requirement and without oversea boks .

I am not against oversea boks just saying our team selection needs a serious revamp.

 

[mania]

I hope you are right Mania. We all need a good competitive game in Cape Town, like it is supposed to be. Not another boring blowout, we all had enough of it

provided that the boks train hard, prep hard and look within themselves individually and as a group and be brutally honest with each other about whats not working. if they arent honest then they'll just keep hiding from each other whats wrong and whats really killing this team.

the truth will set u free. boks never stay down

 

[mania]

to be fair to PDV it was player power led by matfield, smit and FDP that ran that team and runined their chances at the WC. sticking to an antiquated game plan of kick , chase and pressure was outdated. not to mention smit picking himself as a starter ahead of Bismark every game was self serving.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

is someone able to sum up the quota conditions easily? or is it quite complicated

 

[SomeOke]

is someone able to sum up the quota conditions easily? or is it quite complicated

In short the "goal" is that 50% of the 23 be representative, and 30% of that 50% be black South African.
So coloured (not a racial slur in South Africa) or mixed race people like Courtnal Skosan, and Elton Janties count for the 50% but not the 30%, which has to be players like Trevor Nyakane / Siya Kolisi /Raymond Rhule.

 

[Ospervat]

I don't understand why IRB and the IOC tolerate it. It is damaging international rugby. Rugby needs a strong Springboks.

Time to call a spade a spade.

Firstly I don't blame the players for Saturdays fiasco and in fact don't really blame AC - he is simply a pawn in a much bigger agenda.

In order to understand the gradual erosion of SA rugby quality you need to understand the broader socio- political arena in South Africa.

The government in South Africa is fundamentally a racist regime. Their policies are intended to redress the wrongs of historical apartheid through legislation and absolute anti-white governance. I.E a new apartheid. This narrow minded view promotes the philosophy that two wrongs do make a right. This is the African culture.

They are fanatically anti-european. They do not care for colonial culture and western philosophies. Their radical zeal to erase all vestiges of western influence in South African society is all consuming.

They don't care about the cost to its people or give due regard to the consequences of their actions. If the IRB told them that quotas or targets was an unacceptable practice in terms of the constitution the SA Government would pay the messenger due lip service but behind closed doors they quite simply don't give a damn unless there is some financial reward in it for them personally. Their only interest is to serve themselves. This is the African way.

They are a select elite who ultimately don't care about their citizens welfare or development. SA is a faltering state which under the current regime is more inclined towards failure given the circumstances of the socio-economic & political environment.

There are many observable similarities to historical failed states by post revolutionary governments lurching from crisis to crisis, internal dissent, political violence, property disputes, loss of law and order, high levels of corruption, high levels of unemployment, deteriorating infrastructure, demonstrations as a result of public discontent, mass influx of illegal immigrants etc etc etc ..

The current state of South African Rugby is just one small glimpse into a much greater social and political evil that is hell bent on its own agenda at any cost. Period.

As much as we don't want it, South Africa will in the fullness of time become just another 3rd world African country.

The international community needs to accept this and move on.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Thats ugly.
The ANC has established itself like a military junta by the look of it.
The President ( Jacob Zuma?) seems pretty keen to ignore public opinion and divert public funds into the openly grandiose beautification of his own homestead.
240 million rand on his property.
Smuggling gold bars out to Dubai?
What a tawdry mess.
It reminds me of how they conduct themselves in places like Angola.
I did some contract work for Sonangol, the Angolan National Oil company and the amount of wealth they generate, that finds it's way into personal accounts of those in the hierarchy is eye opening.

 

[TRF_heineken]

You guys are digressing from the thread, even though I appreciate you enthusiasm, but I think these last few posts would be better in another thread specifically addressing the issue you are talking about.

Jaco Kriel has been ruled out for the rest of the year with his shoulder injury.

Handre Pollard, Rudy Paige, Damian De Allende, Wilco Louw, Dan Du Preez, Dillyn Leyds and Chilliboy Ralepelle have all been released to play Currie Cup this coming weekend.

The Springboks will reassemble on Sunday and the question is who will be in the squad for the remainder of the RC?? Francois Louw has already indicated that he's on standby.

 

[Ospervat]

You guys are digressing from the thread, even though I appreciate you enthusiasm, but I think these last few posts would be better in another thread specifically addressing the issue you are talking about.

Jaco Kriel has been ruled out for the rest of the year with his shoulder injury.

Handre Pollard, Rudy Paige, Damian De Allende, Wilco Louw, Dan Du Preez, Dillyn Leyds and Chilliboy Ralepelle have all been released to play Currie Cup this coming weekend.

The Springboks will reassemble on Sunday and the question is who will be in the squad for the remainder of the RC?? Francois Louw has already indicated that he's on standby.

Agree.
Problem is that SA performance is inextricably linked with prevailing politics and it is difficult to separate it out as a stand alone issue.
There is a South African Quota catch all thread in General Rugby Union.

 

[Red Enigma]

I sympathise with both Bok and Wallaby camps who simply do not have that well established, amazingly competitive and strong two tier lead up the AB's have.
Many kiwi provincial sides in the Mitre Cup could arguably challenge several Super rugby teams and our Super Rugby sides are clearly at International level. Both SA and Aussie players with ambition need to get to NZ, play provincially and earn the right to play Super rugby anywhere in the comp. The NZRU need to make that pathway open. and players seeking a future in the game more than money, need to grasp the opportunity of living and playing in a country which loves rugby second to nothing.

An alternative which also has value is for a myriad of kiwis to head offshore and play in Aussie/SA. This season so far I have seen countless "unknowns" star in Mitre Cup, These players could grace most international sides, yet at home they struggle to get a Super rugby gig.

My drift is simple - we need to equalise at least one vital stage of a players career. All over the world, soccer teams are "Equalised" by bringing in Europeans or south Americans as star players. Through that routine, NZ, SA and Australian national soccer teams have improved dramatically. Rugby Union needs to do the same and the responsibility lies with the NZRU who have far more talent than they can handle.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I sympathise with both Bok and Wallaby camps who simply do not have that well established, amazingly competitive and strong two tier lead up the AB's have.
Many kiwi provincial sides in the Mitre Cup could arguably challenge several Super rugby teams and our Super Rugby sides are clearly at International level. Both SA and Aussie players with ambition need to get to NZ, play provincially and earn the right to play Super rugby anywhere in the comp. The NZRU need to make that pathway open. and players seeking a future in the game more than money, need to grasp the opportunity of living and playing in a country which loves rugby second to nothing.

An alternative which also has value is for a myriad of kiwis to head offshore and play in Aussie/SA. This season so far I have seen countless "unknowns" star in Mitre Cup, These players could grace most international sides, yet at home they struggle to get a Super rugby gig.

My drift is simple - we need to equalise at least one vital stage of a players career. All over the world, soccer teams are "Equalised" by bringing in Europeans or south Americans as star players. Through that routine, NZ, SA and Australian national soccer teams have improved dramatically. Rugby Union needs to do the same and the responsibility lies with the NZRU who have far more talent than they can handle.

Sorry, But I can't agree with this. This post is more aimed to assist Australia and their woes.

South Africa has a pretty good structure with regard to domestic competitions. Hell, we have the oldest running domestic competition in the world!!

What SA might need assistance with is perhaps if we can get more NZ coaches to come and assist. We already have John Mitchell, Carlos Spencer, and at some stage we also had Laurie Mains and John Plumtree.

The thing is though, that SARU has admitted that the Currie Cup has been taking a knock this year especially as well as the past 2 or 3 years due to the length of the Super Rugby Season, and now with the introduction of the Pro 14, and they have already made plans for next year, when it will be less chaotic.

The other issue was, that since the last RWC, SARU couldn't manage to get big companies to invest or sponsor, due to the economic climate in SA, and other factors. But have already managed to get big name sponsorship deals this year. The new influx of money will surely start to pay dividends next year, and hopefully we won't have another watered down Currie Cup tournament like we do this year.

And even as I say that its still very entertaining to watch. Yes there are the problems you can see with it being more watered down, but there are still many aspects to look at to keep us entertained.

As for talent, we have a very big pool, actually I think our pool might be bigger than that of New Zealand. The problem isn't the players coming in, it's the players being ignored because of their skin colour and either go abroad to find other rugby opportunities, or instead of going proffessional, rather stop playing rugby completely and join the private sector.

 

[smartcooky]

Heineken

I generally don't post on keo.co.za (too many idiots) but there was an article asking whether it is time to bury the Currie Cup, and that was too interesting for me to pass up.. Here is my reply...

I think you are all having the same conversation, and coming to the same conclusions that we did 20 years ago with regards to our National Provincial Championship (now known as the Mitre10 Cup). It was THE pinnacle of NZ domestic rugby, but gradually, as Super 12 (and now Super Rugby) increased in importance, the NPC was slowly downgraded to the status of a feeder competition for our Super Rugby franchises. Don't get me wrong; it is still keenly fought and well-supported in the provinces, but New Zealand fans fully understand where its importance lies in the grand scheme of NZ rugby. The NZRU knows what a vital cog it is in the machine that makes the All Blacks so successful, that is why they continue to pay for it even though it costs them a bucket-load of money every season. They see that money as an investment in the future of the game. When fans and supporters of foreign rugby teams see NZ rugby churn out yet another world class flyhalf or scrum half or wing or openside flanker or prop from a seemingly unending conveyor belt of talent, they ask where on earth do we get these players. The answer is, the NPC. The NZ Franchises are always talent scouting the NPC for likely prospects for two, sometimes three years in the future.
I don't believe you should bury the Currie Cup, you should make an effort turn it into a serious and keenly contested feeder competition for your Super Rugby and Pro14 franchises. Use it for nurturing and identifying talent. I often hear the argument from friends of mine who are South African fans that the players won't stay to play, they will go North. Well, we have that problem too, but I look at it this way. Regardless of what level the player comes from, whether they be an All Black, a Super Rugby player or an NPC player, every player who goes north closes the door on an young upcoming local talent in the country they go to, and opens a door for a young player waiting for his chance here.