[2015 TRC] South Africa v Argentina in Durban (08/08/2015)

[nickdnz]

Agree on Brussow, he slowed down a lot of clean ball. Definitely should have a role going into the RWC (although I am a massive Brussow fan).

Terrible news for Steyn. Hope he and his family are well looked after.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Agree on Brussow, he slowed down a lot of clean ball. Definitely should have a role going into the RWC (although I am a massive Brussow fan).

Terrible news for Steyn. Hope he and his family are well looked after.

My uncle is on his way to them now, his father owns the farm next to Frans' parents farm. According to my uncle, Frans got a lot of support from the Springbok Management and fellow players. The team psychologist even offered to assist him and go with him to the farm.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Not to be disrespectful but the team psychologist should rather focus on getting our boys to be able to keep up their concentration for 85 minutes heading into some crucial games this RWC.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Not to be disrespectful but the team psychologist should rather focus on getting our boys to be able to keep up their concentration for 85 minutes heading into some crucial games this RWC.

yeah, I think it was just a way to show their support. But to be fair, a lot of the players knew Frans' brother. I think he was with Jannie and Bismarck at Kovsies.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I've just read that we are getting Poite for the match. That means.. anything really.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I've just read that we are getting Poite for the match. That means.. anything really.

yup, I've added the Match officials for both matches already this morning to the OP's.

It means that we might get screwed again....

 

[Mcfadden]

Horrid news. Thoughts go out to Frans Steyn and family.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Bok team has been announced... And I like that team a lot!

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

South Africa: 15 Willie le Roux, 14 Jesse Kriel, 13 Jean de Villiers (c), 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Bryan Habana, 10 Handré Pollard, 9 Ruan Pienaar, 8 Schalk Burger, 7 Marcell Coetzee, 6 Heinrich Brüssow, 5 Lood de Jager, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Vincent Koch, 2 Bismarck du Plessis, 1 Tendai Mtawarira

Replacements: 16 Adriaan Strauss, 17 Trevor Nyakane, 18 Marcel van der Merwe, 19 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 20 Siya Kolisi, 21 Cobus Reinach, 22 Pat Lambie, 23 Lwazi Mvovo

Hmm. I like that Koch is getting a start. Also like that Marcel Coetzee, PSdT and MvdM are back in the picture. Kolisi has regained some form this year. A good option on the bench even if I still want Jaco Kriel in the mix.. probably at the expense of Brussow. A few bench options worry me but I suppose that is due to injury (and politics). My biggest problems though is Pienaar's continued selection (maybe its gtten to a point where I've got a chip on my shoulder but he just hasn't done enough to remove it whilst others who's blood I've been calling for in the past have) and JdV waltzing back into the run on XV. I have mixed feelings here but I don't think he is our best player in the centers anymore plain and simple. It feels reminiscent of Bismarck (clearly the best rake in the world at that stage) warming the bench while John Smit was captain at 2011's RWC. You can only afford so many passengers when up against a quality side.

Could've been worse and/or even more experimental I suppose.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Hmm. I like that Koch is getting a start. Also like that Marcel Coetzee, PSdT and MvdM are back in the picture. Kolisi has regained some form this year. A good option on the bench even if I still want Jaco Kriel in the mix.. probably at the expense of Brussow. A few bench options worry me but I suppose that is due to injury (and politics). My biggest problems though is Pienaar's continued selection (maybe its gtten to a point where I've got a chip on my shoulder but he just hasn't done enough to remove it whilst others who's blood I've been calling for in the past have) and JdV waltzing back into the run on XV. I have mixed feelings here but I don't think he is our best player in the centers anymore plain and simple. It feels reminiscent of Bismarck (clearly the best rake in the world at that stage) warming the bench while John Smit was captain at 2011's RWC. You can only afford so many passengers when up against a quality side.

I have been impressed with Ruan this year. Him and Pollard are becoming quite a good linking unit, and I have to say Pienaar's ball clearing has improved a lot from last year. Fourie Du Preez has been given another week to recover and I think that's the only reason why Pienaar got another shot.

We all knew that JDV would get a chance to prove whether he still belongs in the Bok team before the World Cup. let him play and show us whether or not he's on par or not. Having Kriel on the wing is a good move. That way we can still use him as a runner on the 13 channel with some of the moves.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I'm not as optimistic here regarding JdV and Argentina, though ever improving, aren't the same type of test that Kriel passed with flying colours over the 1st two rounds. I mean, why would you put yourself in a position where you need to have guys shuffling around in order to get the best out of a channel on attack?

We need to be getting our best side as much time together as possible IMO.

On Pienaar, yes, his clearly been working on getting to the breakdown a bit quicker and not taking two steps before servicing but that should be par for the course and is something our other options (bar Hougie who also has a tendency to waste time) in Reinach and De Klerk also do well with the added bonus of explosiveness, good running games and better defense than Pienaar who manage to miss every single tackle he tried to make vs Aus!!

 

[TRF_heineken]

I'm not as optimistic here regarding JdV and Argentina, though ever improving, aren't the same type of test that Kriel passed with flying colours over the 1st two rounds. I mean, why would you put yourself in a position where you need to have guys shuffling around in order to get the best out of a channel on attack?

We need to be getting our best side as much time together as possible IMO.

On Pienaar, yes, his clearly been working on getting to the breakdown a bit quicker and not taking two steps before servicing but that should be par for the course and is something our other options (bar Hougie who also has a tendency to waste time) in Reinach and De Klerk also do well with the added bonus of explosiveness, good running games and better defense than Pienaar who manage to miss every single tackle he tried to make vs Aus!!

JDV needs to play, at least he brings in some leadership we have been lacking a bit in the Backline.

Against ARG we need to remain disciplined, otherwise this game will turn into a brawl.

 

[Sam Owen]

JDV looks like Dolph Lundgren. He should go good in the brawls

 

[SomeOke]

Like the team as well! Good to see Koch get a start, happy to see JDV back without compromising DdA at 12, also happy to see Brussow get another chance. While I don't feel he is the player he once was, I'd be very happy to be proven wrong!

edit: Also Siya Kolisi!

 

[TobesHodges]

Very nice Bokkie Team!

 

[Peat]

JdV waltzing back into the run on XV. I have mixed feelings here but I don't think he is our best player in the centers anymore plain and simple. It feels reminiscent of Bismarck (clearly the best rake in the world at that stage) warming the bench while John Smit was captain at 2011's RWC. You can only afford so many passengers when up against a quality side.

Could've been worse and/or even more experimental I suppose.

The Pollard-De Allende-Kriel midfield lacks a certain something on D for me and the whole team looks like it's short a leader or two; putting JdV in can potentially solve that, while the wingers haven't exactly convinced and Kriel offers an improvement there.

I'm not sure it's the best thing to do, but I do think it's worth trying. An issue arises if Meyer's fixed on JdV regardless of whether it actually works.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

The Pollard-De Allende-Kriel midfield lacks a certain something on D for me and the whole team looks like it's short a leader or two; putting JdV in can potentially solve that, while the wingers haven't exactly convinced and Kriel offers an improvement there.

I'm not sure it's the best thing to do, but I do think it's worth trying. An issue arises if Meyer's fixed on JdV regardless of whether it actually works.

You're not wrong but I'd like to add a few things to consider and these tend to fall into line with where my own interests and priorities lie and informs my negative opinion on the inclusion of JdV- though of course only time will tell and I might very well be horribly wrong.

Firstly, yes, the defensive performances of our young 10-12-13 midfield could be better. That said they are young and its only been two games and two very tough games at that (Aus at home and NZ.. anywhere are always tough games). Since they are young and have only had two games as a combination (with Kriel moving into another position than what he has played all year to boot!) and we are experimenting I do feel some leeway is in order. A 70% tackle success rate against Aus is poor. So is the 71% success rate against NZ and at only 1% improvement one can't call it an improvement BUT you havn't mentioned the fact that NZ's 10-12-13 combination with only Sopoaga as new to a very settled combination in Nonu-Smith had, in the same game, a 64% tackle success rate IE our young combination of De Allende-Kriel outplayed their opposition not only on attack but also on defense especially if you take out Pollard's 4/4 vs Sopoaga's 5/1 then it reads 18/5 for De Allende-Kriel and 11/8 for Nonu-Smith. Only the most knee-jerk fans will call for either of Nonu or Smith to be dropped though IMO.

What am I getting at? I'm sorry, I don't have a very structured argument here. I don't even consider it an argument rather than random thoughts on the matter. Please hear me out.

So I guess I'm saying its not totally poor, at least not in relation to the contexts of the games played. Communication on D should also improve. So what I am getting at is its only been 2 tough games and there is a lot of room for improvement. I think it'd easier for Pollard/De Allende/Kriel to improve their one-on-one defense and more importantly their defensive cohesion as a combination than what it would be for JdV to become a relevant threat on attack. He simply doesn't have the top end speed, acceleration or step anymore. I would also put forward his defense isn't monumental and not something to include him in and of itself like one might do for guys like Brad Barrit, Jaque Fourie or Frans Steyn.

Leadership is an issue though I concede. This was Schalk Burger's first start as Bok captain though and we are without many of our leadership group through injury; Vermeulen, Matfield, FdP and of course JdV. Burger and Louw (who we lost quite early in the match) were literally the only guys of our leadership core there against NZ. We lost our captain and VC during the match against Aus. You simply can't plan for these things. It begs the question how many senior players with leadership qualities are needed? I wouldn't know. My feeling though is I don't think that's a good enough reason not to start our best available XV; if those players aren't the best or close enough in their positions then do they really add to our cause? Towards the RWC Vermeulen and FdP who would contribute both as players and leaders should be avialable though. Add Burger, possiby Matfield, Strauss and JdV on the bench (Burger might even start alongside Louw) and suddenly we have enough leaders in the 23 IMO. 4 on the field and enough on the bench should anything happen to our starting 'leaders' or to add experience in thse critical closing stages.

Other than success on the field I feel there is also a want, maybe even a need in SA for a more attacking-minded approach. We've lost enough games playing defensive rugby that we might as well lose them playing more attarctive rugby and trust in the hope that we'll get it right (putting together a holistic approach to the game) sooner rather than later and trust our youth to only get better with game time if we do untrust them with that game time. So for those reasons I am not convinced JdV getting back in is best for SA rugby.

/end rant

 

[TRF_heineken]

I hear you Stormer, but with the current setup, I see no other way.

And let's be honest, De Allende has had some defence issues during the Super Rugby Season this year. But I agree with you, and I think that's why HM also kept him in the 12 position with JDV at 13.

With everything going on regarding injuries/retirement/family issues, etc. Our options are limited, and with that in mind, rather stick with the devil you know than the devil you don't.

Especially going in to a world cup. There can't be less leaders and more debutants. Especially if you want to win the Cup. Our Backline needs experienced players. And for our type of defence to work properly, you need a defensive organiser. Let's see how JDV goes, I know that if he's not up to it, then he'll be subbed. But what if it works?? it will provide more cover for the centre position where we are strained currently.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

De Allende had a 83% success rate in defense vs NZ. His 72% against Aus isn't up to standard, sure, but both De Allende and the combination is showing improvement. Why not allow them to continue to do so?

I also wouldn't say we are strained for options at center. Sure, Jaque Fourie and Frans Steyn are unavaiable but we have the in-form center partnership in the RC here and Jan Sefontein can cover for both and we break it up ONLY to accommodate a player for his leadership qualities. I don't buy the argument of JdV being a much better defensive player than either DdA or Kriel.

I'm not saying drp JdV from the squad but I see him as wearing the no.22 jersey what with Lambie capable of covering 10 and 15 and Kriel able to shift to 15 at a pinch. If that is the route we're going then I'm all for it but starting JdV in this game tells me this is the setup Meyer sees going forward. Though I understand the thought process behind it isn't the right way to go taking into account my own priorities which is of course what will determine my own non-consequential views on the matter.

I'm not as much arguing as simply putting forward personal views even if for no more good reason than wasting time.

 

[TRF_heineken]

De Allende had a 83% success rate in defense vs NZ. His 72% against Aus isn't up to standard, sure, but both De Allende and the combination is showing improvement. Why not allow them to continue to do so?

I also wouldn't say we are strained for options at center. Sure, Jaque Fourie and Frans Steyn are unavaiable but we have the in-form center partnership in the RC here and Jan Sefontein can cover for both and we break it up ONLY to accommodate a player for his leadership qualities. I don't buy the argument of JdV being a much better defensive player than either DdA or Kriel.

I'm not saying drp JdV from the squad but I see him as wearing the no.22 jersey what with Lambie capable of covering 10 and 15 and Kriel able to shift to 15 at a pinch. If that is the route we're going then I'm all for it but starting JdV in this game tells me this is the setup Meyer sees going forward. Though I understand the thought process behind it isn't the right way to go taking into account my own priorities which is of course what will determine my own non-consequential views on the matter.

I'm not as much arguing as simply putting forward personal views even if for no more good reason than wasting time.

Lol. One day you and me should sit with some Biltong and watch some ruggas all day.

I think HM wants to give JDV the benefit. Let him have a run out and see what happens. If he's not up to standard, then no harm done. We still have time to get them to match-up together in the match, which I think will happen anyway, as I can't see JDV play more than 40 minutes, maybe 50.