[2015 Six Nations] Scotland vs Wales (Round 2)

[Jbobo]

There was also no attempt to move out of the way or to duck, he had enough time to do that. Could easily have been a Red. Especially in comparison with Davies' challenge who actually competed for the ball.

 

[ncurd]

Jbobo

Watch it in real time (the first few seconds) several times.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/31494355

Russell is already in the position he more or less ends up before biggar is even in the air (who is running full pelt but he's still on the ground just as he enters frame), he then jumps to grab the ball from above Russell and lands on top of him just to the pace he's moving at. Russell also clearly has his eyes on the ball and doesn't see Biggar coming.

He does attempt to duck slightly but to get out of the way is almost impossible.

He's not really guilty of anything as he is there to catch the high ball, clumsy to not see the welsh player and compete for it better but I wouldn't call it intentional in the slightest. Honestly I'd question a yellow card.

 

[goodNumber10]

Jbobo

Watch it in real time (the first few seconds) several times.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/31494355

Russell is already in the position he more or less ends up before biggar is even in the air (who is running full pelt but he's still on the ground just as he enters frame), he then jumps to grab the ball from above Russell and lands on top of him just to the pace he's moving at. Russell also clearly has his eyes on the ball and doesn't see Biggar coming.

He does attempt to duck slightly but to get out of the way is almost impossible.

He's not really guilty of anything as he is there to catch the high ball, clumsy to not see the welsh player and compete for it better but I wouldn't call it intentional in the slightest. Honestly I'd question a yellow card.

Biggar is in the air and Russell has a duty of care when in the area where the ball may be landing to ceded ground to anyone in the air- if he'd competed he would have been fine, but he didn't he stayed on the ground and to be honest Biggar had beaten him to the air anyway.

It was almost exactly like the Payne incident for ulster (red card) and saved only by how Biggar lands in my mind, or the hugo southwell and the scottish props(can't think of his name?) incidents against Wales 4-5 years ago..

Having said that, i think Davies plays the man in the air with his arms and should also be cited.

 

[Jbobo]

Oh don't get me wrong. I would not say it was a red card, but it could easily have been given especially when you compare it to Davies' challenge. As i said, at least he challenged for the ball. to be honest i think Davies was only given the yellow because russell did. Most would say it's fair and consistent, but i think there should be a degree of common sense in it. Russell was very clumsy, but he didn't mean or want to hurt Biggar. But then should it not be treated like a high tackle? Biggar landed on his head as a result and Russell did not compete for the ball. Warburton threw a guy on his back and certainly didn't mean to and got a red. I just don't like how black or white it is.

 

[TommiG88]

I thought there was a new rule as such saying that a player has a due care for the man in the air. He shouldn't have been cited though, but his awareness of the situation was pretty poor for a professional player.

The Davies Beattie one on the other hand seemed to be I will even this up. In most games that would have been a penalty and no card.

 

[Jbobo]

Yeah to be honest, i remember turning to my dad at the time and saying all he needed to do was to challenge in the air too and he would not have received a card. I doubt either men would have come out of it as dangerously as Biggar did though.

Also agree with you guys saying that he should not have been cited. I wouldn't say either challenge deserved it. There was no malice to be seen.

 

[g6mcg]

It certainly was dangerous, but citing Russell seems unfair and I hope he's not given a ban. Not to blame Davies, but if anything he jumped into the space Russell was occupying.

 

[Will]

Ignoring any talk about potential yellow cards, the fact that Scotland scored a perfectly good try which was ruled out wrongly and without consultation from the TMO is a farce. People can comment on how Scotland were 'wasteful' but that was one chance they didn't waste and the try was stolen from them!

If that happened to England, Wales or Ireland there would be bloody uproar.

 

[SelimNiai]

Is the fact you are 12-4 in the cricket Glen Jackson's fault too?

 

[Will]

Cricket?

 

[ncurd]

The duty of care rules put Russell in the wrong although I'm not entirely sure what he could of done once Biggar jumped, yes he should of been competing in the air anticipating Biggar would of been but he clearly didn't do that. If a player jumps into you from quite a height it's pretty hard to make sure he lands safely as he didn't intend to take him out it's quite harsh to give him anything but a yellow.

Warbarton (who admits he should of been sent off) dropped the guy giving absolutely no duty of care despite the fact he could of done probably what ups it from a red with no ban from a yellow. However at the time I did say it was a harsh red but certainly yellow.

I think the duty of care rules are fair but ref's needs to take into account how much duty of care could feasibly of been provided after the player jumps ie. once the player no longer has full control of himself, not whether the player should of anticipated the other one jumping.

As a side note Biggar probably knew full well where Russel was (his eyes may have not seen him, just like Russell clearly didn't see him) and probably was unlikely to jump. I'd happily suggest he was actually being reckless knowing he'd probably collide with Russell.

 

[TommiG88]

How can biggar have been reckless? That would mean Kearney is reckless every time he goes for a catch as him and biggar have the same technique.

Russell's awareness was his let down, he was quite a way off the ball hence why he looked for a welsh player and it was too late. I also blame his enthusiasm to get there. These things happen though.

 

[ncurd]

It's a question of whether he knew Russell was there, IF he did it certainly was wreckless as he knew he'd collide with him probably in a dangerous manner as Russel was in his path before he entered the air.

Technique has nothing to do with it, it's whether your wreckless in using that technique. If Russell wasn't in the way it would of been brilliant.

I've not seen it from an angle where you possibly know how aware Biggar was of Russell.

 

[TommiG88]

I'm afraid I disagree there. With that view the tactic of up and unders will be wiped from the game. No one will be allowed to jump for the ball.

 

[ae15]

It's a question of whether he knew Russell was there, IF he did it certainly was wreckless as he knew he'd collide with him probably in a dangerous manner as Russel was in his path before he entered the air.

Technique has nothing to do with it, it's whether your wreckless in using that technique. If Russell wasn't in the way it would of been brilliant.

I've not seen it from an angle where you possibly know how aware Biggar was of Russell.

How can you possibly say that Biggar was reckless? The whole point of playing up and unders is to challenge for the ball in the air, what would be the point of it if the attacker couldn't win the ball? The attacking player always risks themselves by putting a challenge in for an up and under, the same risk that a defender puts himself in if he jumps for the ball. It was still very careless from Russell, whether he meant it or not, because he absolutely ploughed through Biggar. When you compare that with Davies', who has caught him in the act of competing for the ball, or even for the one that Cornal Hendricks got binned for against Wales in the Autumn Internationals, that could very easily have been a red card with a less understanding referee. I must say however, I don't understand why he has been cited.

 

[ncurd]

because he absolutely ploughed through Biggar..

He didn't plough through Biggar, watch the incident (in real time) he barely moves just before and after Biggar enter the air. Biggar jumps into a space in which someone is already occupying, I'm just saying it's his own fault if he knew the other player was there.

--- Updated ---

Also just to say I'm not trying to say it should be taken out the game or anything or it wasn't a penalty because regardless of intent or anything he could do, he still took a player out in the air.

The entire thing happened as both players got to the ball landing area at the same time and Russell tried to collect the ball on the ground rather than the air.

---Updated---

Just watched the Davies (as people keep citing it) incident yeah it's nothing, penalty no yellow card.

 

[goodNumber10]

The fundamental point is that Russel ran into the space occupied by Biggar's trajectory.

If he was in the that area first he could have stood his ground and Biggar going over his head would have been a none issue and Biggars fault imho.

But he didn't he moved into the space and therefore the onus is on him as the player on the ground to ensure the jumpers safety. As the player travelling on the ground it's entirely down to him to ensure he enters the contact zone safely.

He didn't.

It's not malicious or intentional but it is a card in the same way a high tackle or tipping through the horizontal is. He's Luky that Biggar was able to break his fall with his arms other wise it'd probably have been a straight red.

 

[ncurd]

GN10

Just want to clarify about 'trajectory' are you talking about the entire move or just when he enters the air?

Because personally if it's the latter looking at the footage I think Russell is there (or just about by fractions of a second) before Biggar enters the air.

My understanding is however that under current rules Russell doesn't have the right to occupy the space and has to get out the way or at least that's how the rule was being applied.

 

[goodNumber10]

GN10

Just want to clarify about 'trajectory' are you talking about the entire move or just when he enters the air?

Because personally if it's the latter looking at the footage I think Russell is there (or just about by fractions of a second) before Biggar enters the air.

My understanding is however that under current rules Russell doesn't have the right to occupy the space and has to get out the way or at least that's how the rule was being applied.

once he enters the air - at that point Biggar is incapable of changing his direction so he is entirely at Russels mercy.

If Russel was already in that space before Biggar jumped he could have just planted and waited to collect the ball old school style, he was clearly going for the catch on the move and that's why he looked up so late and entered Biggars space.

 

[ncurd]

Fair enough I'll agree to disagree on what happened first Biggar entering the air or Russell occupying the space. We seam to agree on what should happen whichever happen first.

I'm ok with the yellow card I think it's harsh (but I flirt with whether I would of given one) but don't have an issue, however I do think more clarification is needed on what constitutes in these situations as no card, yellow card, red and further ban.