[2015 Six Nations] Scotland vs Wales (Round 2)

[Will]

There was a point made earlier, I can't remember by whom, who said that a referee's decisions cannot be held as responsible for the outcome of a match, and to suggest otherwise would mean that they didn't understand rugby.

Nonsense.

It's all very well saying that in a 10+ point game, but in a three point game where repeated infringements and 'professional fouls' by Welsh players, none of which led to a yellow card, a perfectly fine try by Bennett ruled out without even referring to the TMO, and then to have time called at the end when the re-start should have been taken (just like in 2010). To state that these points weren't important and that the correct refereeing of this game (by all officials) wouldn't have likely ended up with a different result is just daft.

I'm not suggesting that Scotland aren't their own worst enemy in their wasteful nature, but I don't think it's wrong to expect some fair and balanced refereeing.

There were also a couple of occasions that I can remember where the way the Welsh players cleared out rucks without even bothering to pretend to use their arms. Straight in with the shoulder, where on one occasion Hogg was lucky not to have been seriously injured.
I won't hold back and state that i find that Wales, whilst a brilliantly effective team of class players, they are also a bloody dirty team as well. Wales have become the team, more so than say England, that I would like to see Scotland beat. I was probably one of the few Scots who was cheering England last weekend when they won in Cardiff and I seriously hope that both France and Ireland smash the Welsh.

 

[ncurd]

I also find it funny when people say a ref doesn't influence a result when they clearly do. The worst part is always when you loose because you didn't get the rub of the green. I don't think any ref is intentionally bad (yes even Mr. Walsh) but I certainly know the frustrations.

I personally think England have been denied two championships due to Walsh one game where he stopped giving anything England's way and we lost by a narrow standpoint the other where we deservedly lost but by such a margin because he couldn't see how much Wales were cheating scrum time that the margin of loss meant England lost the championship.

Also I think we'd be talking a lot more about the '03 world cup final reffing standards in the second half had England gone on to loose that game.


Overall I think it's a hard life being a ref and while I may yell a lot during a match I try to remember that they actually have a pretty difficult job, there's a lot going on every second of the match.

 

[goodNumber10]

I also find it funny when people say a ref doesn't influence a result when they clearly do.

I think the general idea is that you should play a standard of game that doesn't allow the refs decisions to influence them - most decisions that go against a team are 50/50 calls - so if your basic skill are good enough you should cut those margins for error down to a minimal.

At least that's the theory and a team like the All Blacks or the Crusaders would point to it working.

Scotland are turning a corner and struggling for that final top 2 inches, as they get better the scope for referee intervention will go down.

You'll still get the occasional call, but they'll either be massive or not so impactful.

 

[ncurd]

Agreed I think most of the time reffing decisions actually only effect the margin of victory the dominant team tends to win.

 

[Peat]

As a player or occasional coach - you take full responsibility. As GN10 says, you know the ref will make mistakes, or come down against you in a 50-50, so your job is to go out there and play to a standard which removes his influence from the game. Basically, everything he said.

As a fan - there is nothing I hate more than reffing as the most important factor in the game and sometimes it is. I like the idea that, in rugby, you avoid talking about the ref, but sometimes you have to or you're basically sat in a corner going "La la la".

I didn't see the full game and what I saw was in the pub with my sister complaining that me and her gf were spending too much time watching the rugby and not enough paying attention to her - but from what I saw, I understand Scotland's grievance. Wouldn't surprise me if Wales had some of their own, when reffing units start making bad decisions they tend to make them both ways, but I saw some absolute humdingers against Scotland.

Still, the only thing that Scotland can do is, just like the rest of us, is work on improving their game to reduce that chance. I really hope they do. There's some real promising green shoots and I'm tired of Scotland being crap.

 

[Bluemoon]

There were also a couple of occasions that I can remember where the way the Welsh players cleared out rucks without even bothering to pretend to use their arms. Straight in with the shoulder, where on one occasion Hogg was lucky not to have been seriously injured.
I won't hold back and state that i find that Wales, whilst a brilliantly effective team of class players, they are also a bloody dirty team as well. Wales have become the team, more so than say England, that I would like to see Scotland beat. I was probably one of the few Scots who was cheering England last weekend when they won in Cardiff and I seriously hope that both France and Ireland smash the Welsh.

What it boils down to is that there were a few refereeing decisions that were poor or missed for both sides, which we can discuss at length. The one that really counted was not giving Wales a card when in the red zone when there were repeated infringements. I'm with you on that one, but then there were times through the game were Scotland repeatedly infringed too. The time at the end was also relevant, but there was no guarantee that Scotland would snatch it.

I think the best teams get away with things at the breakdown and try to play to what the referee is focusing upon. I don't buy that Wales are any more of a 'dirtier' team than any other of the home nations. There were also a few interesting plays by Scotland at the breakdown and that was probably due to the way the ref was running the game.

Hoping another team gets 'smashed' is very petty and you seem like a bitter and extremely poor loser. Despite that, I hope Scotland go on the win their next few games as they are approaching games in the right way, they just need a little more composure at the right times.

 

[TommiG88]

Scotland had a handful of bad decisions in the last 10 minutes however Scotland got away with it most of the second half. How many times did your guys go in from the side? It got pinged about 4 or 5, but Harley seemed to do it every bloody ruck. It was verging on embarrassing. I kind of feel that Jackson regretted not dishing out a yellow, so to even it up he didn't give one to wales nearing the end. If he had, this forum would be filled with the welsh letting out some steam.

I'm not getting into this ref conversation again. He didn't have the best game but it was to both sides, he didn't change the result of the game. Scotland butchered a few opportunities which cost you. End of story.

 

[Will]

Hoping another team gets 'smashed' is very petty and you seem like a bitter and extremely poor loser. Despite that, I hope Scotland go on the win their next few games as they are approaching games in the right way, they just need a little more composure at the right times.

Bitter? Quite possibly. When as a Scotland fan you're getting hit with stats such as how we haven't beaten Wales for seven (now eight) years and yet you remember the Welsh getting away with murder to come back & win in 2010 & again getting away with it yesterday, it does start to grind you down.

Simple fact is that I don't like this Welsh team & I personally consider them to be a dirty team. You could argue that they are just being 'professional' but I think they get away with a hell of a lot.


Bennett scored a perfectly good try & the referee ruled it out for what reason I'm still not quite sure. He didn't even bring it back to the TMO which would have showed the try should have stood. To say that Scotland just didn't take their chances, well there's a perfectly good chance there that they did take and the ref' ruled it out on a whim. Are you telling me you wouldn't be furious if that situation was reversed?

The time at the end was also relevant, but there was no guarantee that Scotland would snatch it.

They probably wouldn't have made anything from any last play but that's not the point. There was time for the kick off and all I'd ask for would be for the game to be refereed properly.

https://vine.co/v/OPVVH5Hd3g3

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I entirely understand your frustration Will, but I think it's important to apportion blame correctly and fairly.

I'm not a huge fan of Wales atm but most of that is little to do with their actual players and apart from a couple of players who get my goat, they're not a dirty team. Warburton is the most likeable rugby player of any nation to have graced the game in quite some time.

The referee takes the blame and I very much hope Cotter is asking the IRB for 'clarifications'...

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

um..... http://www.scottishrugby.org/news/15/02/16/disciplinary-update-finn-russell-citing make sense.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Bitter? Quite possibly. When as a Scotland fan you're getting hit with stats such as how we haven't beaten Wales for seven (now eight) years and yet you remember the Welsh getting away with murder to come back & win in 2010 & again getting away with it yesterday, it does start to grind you down.

Simple fact is that I don't like this Welsh team & I personally consider them to be a dirty team. You could argue that they are just being 'professional' but I think they get away with a hell of a lot.


Bennett scored a perfectly good try & the referee ruled it out for what reason I'm still not quite sure. He didn't even bring it back to the TMO which would have showed the try should have stood. To say that Scotland just didn't take their chances, well there's a perfectly good chance there that they did take and the ref' ruled it out on a whim. Are you telling me you wouldn't be furious if that situation was reversed?

I think most people in line with what you say could call other sides dirty. I saw what you are complaining about Wales yesterday was similar to what I could see happening from Scotland. I saw a few things I wasn't happy with but at the end of the day it was missed by the officials. It happened both ways whether you chose to accept it or not, that is up to you. But try to move on. Scotland are on the up, not down.

As mentioned the officiating wasn't great, but Jackson isn't a bad referee overnight. I personally felt he had a lack of real help from his AR's yesterday.

The fact remains, Scotland are a side on the rise. Vern Cotter has got them playing some good rugby, I have a deep feeling they will upset teams at the World Cup. I promised myself I wouldn't wade into this argument because somewhere along the line I will get told off for being a MOD.

um..... http://www.scottishrugby.org/news/15/02/16/disciplinary-update-finn-russell-citing make sense.

Think it is a reasonable call. It is to be seen if an outcome will come of it.

 

[scootz]

I see Russell Finn has been cited.

It was obvious there was no malice in his 'challenge'... he just screwed-up his approach / timing (he had an awful game full stop) and couldn't get out of the way. He was correctly Yellow-carded for it.

End of story.... surely!?

Is Rugby Union 'officialdom' trying to completely crush Scottish souls?

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

I see Russell Finn has been cited.

It was obvious there was no malice in his 'challenge'... he just screwed-up his approach / timing (he had an awful game full stop) and couldn't get out of the way. He was correctly Yellow-carded for it.

End of story.... surely!?

Is Rugby Union 'officialdom' trying to completely crush Scottish souls?

just posted an article i think this is pathetic. Surely if they were watching Russell timed is approach to the ball badly and tried his best to get out off the way. A yellow was fair enough but why is he getting cited ? makes no sense to me. To any welsh fans here is there anything going on with Johnathan Davies tackle on Johnnie Beattie i know it wasn't as bad.

 

[Will]

Is Rugby Union 'officialdom' trying to completely crush Scottish souls?

They're certainly crushing mine. I've been going to Murryfield for years, I was away in Paris last weekend for the game there, I've gone on the last two Lions tours and I go to Scotstoun when my shifts allow (as well as away games with Glasgow), but right now I'm feeling beaten.

 

[munstermuffin]

I see Russell Finn has been cited.

It was obvious there was no malice in his 'challenge'... he just screwed-up his approach / timing (he had an awful game full stop) and couldn't get out of the way. He was correctly Yellow-carded for it.

End of story.... surely!?

Is Rugby Union 'officialdom' trying to completely crush Scottish souls?

If that goes any further it'll be terrible for game. He simply mistimed as was said and simply tried to stay away from jumping man completely.

 

[Tony Manx]

If that goes any further it'll be terrible for game. He simply mistimed as was said and simply tried to stay away from jumping man completely.

Totally agree......the world has gone bloody mad!!

He got a yellow correctly...end of!!

Am sure that will be the result of the hearing even if I do not like his hairstyle!!!

 

[LiRFCMatt]

If that goes any further it'll be terrible for game. He simply mistimed as was said and simply tried to stay away from jumping man completely.

It was careless, idiotic and a disgrace to the game.

Oh, we're talking about the tackle? I thought we were on the subject of his kicking to the corner.

Just a yellow. Leave it there.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

It was careless, idiotic and a disgrace to the game.

Oh, we're talking about the tackle? I thought we were on the subject of his kicking to the corner.

Just a yellow. Leave it there.

I agree that was a waste off a chance. But even if the tackle costs atleast a 1 match ban i'm still going to be seriously annoyed.

 

[Jbobo]

To the guys saying that Wales were committing proffessional fouls which were not picked up by Jackson - It was the same for Scotland. I counted AT LEAST three tackles off the ball when wales were in try scoring chances. One early in the first half when Wales should have scored by knocked on, and two later in the game. These are all potentially yellow cards, and this is not taking into account other decisions too. Sure Wales could have picked up another yellow, but then Scotland should have had at least as much. Blaming the ref is not going to win games for you but i can't empathise with your frustration. I think we'd see a lot more complaining from Welsh supporters if we hadn't managed to score one when one of these professional fouls happened. But as someone pointed out, Scotland are becoming more and more competitive in the last 20 minutes of games against the 'big teams' and there is no denying that they are a team on the up.

 

[ncurd]

Just seen the challenge. Why on earth was he cited? Did someone see Gatland's comments and think they had to justify in his delusional state?

Clearly had his eye on the ball first and didn't really notice the Welsh player until it was too late, absolutely no attempt to take the player out in air clearly yellow at worst.

Next they'll say say Warrenball is exemplary form of the game and all teams should be encouraged to play it.