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[2015 Six Nations] Ireland vs England (Round 3)

How so?



It's hard to argue that Care wasn't the best 9 in the 6 nations last season and was there on merit.

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you haven't really made a point other then we've changed a lot of players.

But our Entire squads consistency has been seriously hampered by injuries over the last 3 years... i think we'd have seen a much more settled team if not for injuries and date clashes.

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but that's my point that pool has consistently been drained...

Drained but not emptied. All of the time Eastmond was there (and the one match Farrell experiment), we could have been building Twelvetrees. Pretty sure we could have used Joseph again instead of Tomkins.

Small things, and possibly Lancaster did the right thing in those cases, but lots of small things become the big things.
 
Peat, who would you like to see as England coach after the World Cup?

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I posted it in this thread, but you were too dumb to notice.

I saw your Greenwood post, but it has no relevance to anything i was saying about Ford or anything i was disagreeing with you on.

And here come the insults - again.

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Drained but not emptied. All of the time Eastmond was there (and the one match Farrell experiment), we could have been building Twelvetrees. Pretty sure we could have used Joseph again instead of Tomkins.

Small things, and possibly Lancaster did the right thing in those cases, but lots of small things become the big things.

Joseph was injured for the Tomkins AI's wasn't he? Even Tomkins for LB was an enforced change as he wrecked his back.
 
Really think England are going to be a force to be reckoned with in a year or two. Lancaster needs to trust his players and believe in them, and stop dropping them when something goes wrong. It's kind of like the criticism of Payne and Henshaw, yet Schmidt continues to let them grow, and it is this confidence that he is giving the players that is making the difference. Lancaster just needs to find his ideal centre partnership, as well as 11 and 14 and stick with it. Let it develop. But people should be excited about what england potentially have to offer come a year or two.
 
I can't be bothered going back and proving you wrong because you would just make an excuse, but briefly, I said Ford made Youngs look good by making runs off him, you suggested Farrell did this all the time, and Greenwood then made the same point in the Telegraph this week, and I assume he made it because he hadn't seen it happen for a long time.
 
Anyway, it all comes down to interpretation, you seem to think Lancaster has done a good job given the circumstances, and I think he has only been a slight improvement on Johnson.

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You don't seem to understand inference, so I won't bother pursuing this further, it would be too painful.
 
Anyway, it all comes down to interpretation, you seem to think Lancaster has done a good job given the circumstances, and I think he has only been a slight improvement on Johnson.

that's fair enough, and it's a hard point to argue... i do think his hand has been tied a lot of times when we've started to gain cohesion.

You don't seem to understand inference, so I won't bother pursuing this further, it would be too painful.

I understand inference just fine, it's just what Greenwood said in his article was not relevant to our discusison or the point i was making in it.

We don't have to agree about things, but again i'll point out that you just don't seem to be able to discuss anything civilly without resorting to pettiness or belittlement.

I'm not really sure why you have taken such a massive dislike to me - from post one in the Italy thread you have been constantly on my case trying to prove everything i say wrong or belittle any observation i make, it's wearing increidbly thin and there really is no need for it...
 
Really? I seem to recall a post by you bemoaning the calibre of our backline in the last few months or so. If barely of our backs have a shot at making the Lions, as was your post, how on earth can we have a similar calibre of squad to the team that unquestionably provides 2 members if fit and arguably double that?

I'm also intrigued to know who we have in the same calibre as most of the Irish squad when it comes to experience of winning tight games. I appear to have forgotten some of our double HEC/Grand slam winners.
I agree, I probably used the wrong choice of words, but I do believe the difference is the coaching. Ireland haven't been completely overhauled by Schmidt as such. The players that played under both Kidney and Schmidt have shown sustained improvement under Schmidt. Guys like Conor Murray, who I never previously rated, have become extremely talented under Schmidt.

You expect players to come onto the international scene and spend the next couple of years building on their performances, developing into real quality players. What have we seen in 4 years of Lancaster? An unpredictable shimmying of quality in our backline, resulting in the chop and change. The chop and change is a fairly clear indicator that the coaching staff do not know how to put together a well-drilled backline; easier to drop a player and shift the blame to them, than realise your own issues. When so many players have been through the system and failed to make an impact, you wonder whether it is the players, or the system, that is at fault.

Had we gotten the coaching right in 2012, our player base would be a lot more impressive right now.
 
Well, it's because you go out of your way to try to prove my assertions wrong, and when I use evidence to back them up you disregard it, which is when I give up and call you stupid.

Before someone like Olly warns me, I've learnt I can't be civil with no.10, so I just won't talk to him.
 
Ireland looked smaller and speedier today and their loose forwards kept winning the contact situation, or slowing it down, because they physically quicker and more agile than their lumpy counterparts. Robs haw (not a 7) Haskell and Vunipola are all men mountains but they all lack pace and agility compared the the smaller more modern speedy sniffers and thats why England were found out at the breakdown so often, or had their ball slowed down.
Lancaster and co. look like they are copying the Bok loose forward model where they will happily go without a lightning no.7 with an unhealthy disregard for their well being. In the big contests the more mobile forwards give you a little something extra across the board. So it was for Ireland today. They tackled like demons and they did it in unity. Regularly they caught England out for speed at the breakdown and pressured the possession in a tight professional manner.

This is largely due to the losses of Lawes/Launchbury
 
Anyway, Jnuh and Peat, who do you think would do a better job? Mallinder? Or should we go for a foreign coach, like we should have last time with Mallett?
 
I don't think you'd gain anything appreciable on-field with a Lancaster replacement.

You could concievably improve the squad quite considerably without firing anyone - although it's difficult to tell without knowing the dynamic within the coaching team behind the scenes.
 
Well, it's because you go out of your way to try to prove my assertions wrong, and when I use evidence to back them up you disregard it, which is when I give up and call you stupid.

I haven't done anything of the like... You're first post was essentially telling me that my observations on how to beat Italy were wrong or so obvious i shouldn't have bothered saying anything, yet somehow it's me who is going out of their way to attack you and prove you wrong? When in fact 90% of the time i'm actually agreeing with your observations.

Additionally you say you use evidence to back your points up but all you've done is post a quote out fo context to a greenwood article and then frame it as contradictory to what i was saying.

Before someone like Olly warns me, I've learnt I can't be civil with no.10, so I just won't talk to him.

It's a forum, it's for discussing things and making observations, especially things people don't necessarily agree on but there is no need to constantly attack people.
 
My personal preference would be for the former U20 coaches, Hunter and Walshe. The former has transformed Exeter's play, and the latter won two JWCs. They may not be the most experienced, but they are talented young coaches and have most in-depth knowledge of the generation of England players who will be around in 2019.

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Failing that, I would just go for the Northampton coaching team.
 
I don't think you'd gain anything appreciable on-field with a Lancaster replacement.

You could concievably improve the squad quite considerably without firing anyone - although it's difficult to tell without knowing the dynamic within the coaching team behind the scenes.

I'd quite like to see Mike Catt given more of a role. Our back play in Argentina was really nice, and i think there was some real influence of his in our back play in 2014 6N's.

I don't know what's happened since then but we played some lovely rugby, and we obviosuly still can (the strike move for the Joseph try against Italy was lovely)
 
Oh, in the first scenario I would keep Rowntree as forward coach, but with Hunter teaching the forwards how to run hard (best part of Exeter's game) and I would keep Andy Farrell as defense coach as long as he shut up the rest of the time.

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Anyway. congrats Ireland, I don't know what your draw for the World Cup is like but I think you will have a chance against any team, including the All Blacks.
 
Personally, I would be completely happy with just one change to the coaching team: Alex King to come in to coach both the forwards and backs in attack.

My personal preference would be for the former U20 coaches, Hunter and Walshe. The former has transformed Exeter's play, and the latter won two JWCs. They may not be the most experienced, but they are talented young coaches and have most in-depth knowledge of the generation of England players who will be around in 2019.

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Failing that, I would just go for the Northampton coaching team.
Walshe hasn't done much to get the Gloucester attack going.
 
To be honest i think it's pretty difficult to say that attempting to rely on Care and Youngs is a good idea given how horribly inconsistent they have been throughout their international careers.
They are almost as bad as 36 in that regard.

The only conclusion I feel it is sensible to draw regarding those 3 is that they aren't as good as we think / previously thought they could be. There's no other legitimate conclusion for players who are so consistently inconsistent.
Ben Youngs is the worst really. He's the kid with the older brother, who bosses people around until you meet the older brother and find he's really not that terrifying at all... Youngs will, until the end of his career, will continue to look one of the most exciting scrummies around when his pack on top, and the most clueless when the pack struggle. Yes, true to some extent of most scrum halves, but the more significant point is that Youngs retains zero influence in these situations, whereas Murray could exert the sort of control to get his team back on top. However, I don't think there's an answer for England except to stick with Youngs until the next generation come through. Wigglesworth looked sharp today, but that doesn't make him the right man to start games, necessarily.

If anyone has brainwaves regarding what England's gameplan today might have been, please PM me, because I'd be delighted to hear theories. For example, our kick-offs made no sense, insofar as they were uncontestable and allowed Zebo to run it back from deep. I don't think Ford had a good game today to be honest, though he wasn't helped by those around him. There's no point beating about the bush; I rate Ford hugely and he'll bounce back, but it's dishonest to pretend sometimes having such a small guy at 10 doesn't make a difference in defence. @goodNumber10 is right about this issue in general, as it was clear to see Ireland make ground every time they ran at Ford today.

We know that most teams have a guy they rely on disproportionately; for Ireland that's Sexton, as we've seen. For Wales, that's Halfpenny and arguably Roberts. I'm starting to think that for England, that's Mike Brown. No way on earth would Ireland have scored that try with Brown at the back. Guscott actually made a good point when saying that Mike Brown actually 'attacks' the high-ball - he lands and is already on his way past defenders. Goode on the other hand, is static and aims purely to catch the ball. England have come to depend on go-forward ball, and Browns ability to beat the man is key. Goode doesn't have that, and for my money if Lancaster and co can't spot this they need better analysts / eyes.

Our execution was pretty poor and Lancaster can feel angry at this, but at the same time if he can't see the deficiencies of certain players he has only himself to blame.
 
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