[2015 RWC] Warm Up Match: New Zealand vs Australia (15/08/2015)

[Peat]

i take issue with that mentality.

We castigate referee's for missing things yet applaud people for openly cheating under it's part of the game, how does that work?

The ref's meant to do this job, which is enforcing the rules, and the players are meant to do their job, which is winning the game by any means necessary on the pitch, regardless of their in-game legality; that seems to be most people's mindsets.

 

[General Tah]

The ref's meant to do this job, which is enforcing the rules, and the players are meant to do their job, which is winning the game by any means necessary on the pitch, regardless of their in-game legality; that seems to be most people's mindsets.

Soooo everyones hypocrite

 

[goodNumber10]

The ref's meant to do this job, which is enforcing the rules, and the players are meant to do their job, which is winning the game by any means necessary on the pitch, regardless of their in-game legality; that seems to be most people's mindsets.

The players job is not to cheat though, the players job is to play rugby to the best of their abilities and deliver a performance that can win games.

*concious we're heading off topic here*

 

[Peat]

Soooo everyones hypocrite

Only if you believe it hypocritical to state someone should be better at their job while knowingly doing/condoning something that makes it harder.

Which I'm not sure I agree with tbh; I certainly don't think it matters. Rugby players won't stop cheating and there's still huge grounds for improvement in the reffing of the game despite that.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

i take issue with that mentality.

We castigate referee's for missing things yet applaud people for openly cheating under "it's part of the game", how does that work?

IMHO if you chose to play outside of the laws then you are a cheat. I mean it's not as if it's impossible to win by adhering to the laws, and if he cheats then you cheat then they cheat a little bit more - and worse it cascades down the game.

I think there needs to be a real push for fair play in the game, and it has to come from Coaches and players at the elite level.

Amen to that.

 

[TobesHodges]

i take issue with that mentality.

We castigate referee's for missing things yet applaud people for openly cheating under "it's part of the game", how does that work?

IMHO if you chose to play outside of the laws then you are a cheat. I mean it's not as if it's impossible to win by adhering to the laws, and if he cheats then you cheat then they cheat a little bit more - and worse it cascades down the game.

I think there needs to be a real push for fair play in the game, and it has to come from Coaches and players at the elite level.

I fully understand, I think this is more from a spectators point of view, I was quoting as a Current player, for example a cheeky hand in the ruck or slightly playing the scrum half etc etc, as a player if you get away with it, why shouldn't you and if there are blind spots in the game why shouldn't you exploit them. I know this is bit of a backward way of think, but I know for a fact many current players of all levels have this same mentality..

And if you think Hansen is in the dressing room saying "you know what Richie, make sure you onside when hassling the scrum half, I don't care how much your getting away with it" think again and that is the mentality through out a lot of current players and coaches.. For the good or bad of the sport..

 

[General Tah]

I know this is bit of a backward way of think, but I know for a fact many current players of all levels have this same mentality..

Hmmm yep great way to play the game.

 

[TobesHodges]

Hmmm yep great way to play the game.

Just stating my own experiences from clubs and players..

 

[Mcfadden]

I fully understand, I think this is more from a spectators point of view, I was quoting as a Current player, for example a cheeky hand in the ruck or slightly playing the scrum half etc etc, as a player if you get away with it, why shouldn't you and if there are blind spots in the game why shouldn't you exploit them. I know this is bit of a backward way of think, but I know for a fact many current players of all levels have this same mentality..

Exactly.

Creating intellectual arguments on a forum is all very good and makes for some good discussion. However, when you actually live the moment, it's damn intense. All sorts of players are doing things that are pushing it, either marginally or by a country mile. Some of that is laziness, some of it is inferior fitness, some of it is malicious, some of it is trying to be competitive and not necessarily cheating.

 

[goodNumber10]

I fully understand, I think this is more from a spectators point of view, I was quoting as a Current player, for example a cheeky hand in the ruck or slightly playing the scrum half etc etc, as a player if you get away with it, why shouldn't you and if there are blind spots in the game why shouldn't you exploit them. I know this is bit of a backward way of think, but I know for a fact many current players of all levels have this same mentality..

And if you think Hansen is in the dressing room saying "you know what Richie, make sure you onside when hassling the scrum half, I don't care how much your getting away with it" think again and that is the mentality through out a lot of current players and coaches.. For the good or bad of the sport..

I understand that mate, i'm not saying it's otherwise, but condoning it on the basis of others do it doesn't make these things right it just means everyone is cheating.

Players at all levels do it because we have developed the mentality that rugby is a sport where gamesmanship is ok, where breaking the rules is ok and that is lead by players and coaches at the elite level.

- - - Updated - - -

Exactly.

Creating intellectual arguments on a forum is all very good and makes for some good discussion. However, when you actually live the moment, it's damn intense. All sorts of players are doing things that are pushing it, either marginally or by a country mile. Some of that is laziness, some of it is inferior fitness, some of it is malicious, some of it is trying to be competitive and not necessarily cheating.

We're not talking about going off your feet because you lose balance (for example), we're talking about choose to do something outside the laws of the game then you conciously take a decision to cheat.

I coach, i have a choice to make, i can teach my guys how to do things illegally or I can teach them how to do things properly - If I teach them to do things properly, give them a framework they can adapt, we should take the individual refs interpretation out of the equation.

 

[smartcooky]

Only the most one-eyed All Black hater could convince themselves that McCaw has not been the target of cowardly and violent foul play throughout his career and has not had far more than his fair share. I don't buy the "comes with the territory" or "he has it coming" boIIocks that some idiots like to trot out.

No other player in world rugby has ever been subject to the amount of malicious violence that this man has taken; he has been heat-butted, kneed in the face, punched, kicked, eye-gouged, head stamped and spear tackled many, many times, and in all that time, he has never retaliated in kind, never punched an opponent, never been cited or appeared before a judiciary and never been red carded.

THAT is the measure of this man!

For the record
Forearm to the face (Dean Greyling)
Forearm drop to the head (Dylan Hartley)
Knee to the head (Jamie Heaslip)
Eye gouge (Aurelien Rougerie)
Knee to the head (Scott Higginbotham)
Head Butt (Scott Higginbotham)
Swinging forearm to the head (Andy Powell)
Punched (Phil Waugh)
Head stomp (Ali Williams)
Knee to the head (Quade Cooper - twice)
Spear tackled (Lote Tuqiri)
Eye gouge (Kevin McLaughlin)
Swinging forearm to the neck (Phil Waugh)

If you (whoever is reading this) think he deserved everything he got then you're a prick!

 

[General Tah]

Only the most one-eyed All Black hater could convince themselves that McCaw has not been the target of cowardly and violent foul play throughout his career and has not had far more than his fair share. I don't buy the "comes with the territory" or "he has it coming" boIIocks that some idiots like to trot out.

No other player in world rugby has ever been subject to the amount of malicious violence that this man has taken; he has been heat-butted, kneed in the face, punched, kicked, eye-gouged, head stamped and spear tackled many, many times, and in all that time, he has never retaliated in kind, never punched an opponent, never been cited or appeared before a judiciary and never been red carded.

THAT is the measure of this man!

For the record
Forearm to the face (Dean Greyling)
Forearm drop to the head (Dylan Hartley)
Knee to the head (Jamie Heaslip)
Eye gouge (Aurelien Rougerie)
Knee to the head (Scott Higginbotham)
Head Butt (Scott Higginbotham)
Swinging forearm to the head (Andy Powell)
Punched (Phil Waugh)
Head stomp (Ali Williams)
Knee to the head (Quade Cooper - twice)
Spear tackled (Lote Tuqiri)
Eye gouge (Kevin McLaughlin)
Swinging forearm to the neck (Phil Waugh)

If you (whoever is reading this) think he deserved everything he got then you're a prick!

Only the most one eyed allblack would say he hasnt cheated and burned the rules of the game for over a decade.

 

[ZeroTwo]

Cheating ≠ Deserving of malicious dogshots.

It's an old school concept from stamping on someone on the wrong side of the ruck all the way through to getting an "edge" over your opponent. As the game has become professional things like the hits have become bigger etc, but there's no space for that attitude.

 

[nickdnz]

Only the most one-eyed All Black hater could convince themselves that McCaw has not been the target of cowardly and violent foul play throughout his career and has not had far more than his fair share. I don't buy the "comes with the territory" or "he has it coming" boIIocks that some idiots like to trot out.

No other player in world rugby has ever been subject to the amount of malicious violence that this man has taken; he has been heat-butted, kneed in the face, punched, kicked, eye-gouged, head stamped and spear tackled many, many times, and in all that time, he has never retaliated in kind, never punched an opponent, never been cited or appeared before a judiciary and never been red carded.

THAT is the measure of this man!

For the record
Forearm to the face (Dean Greyling)
Forearm drop to the head (Dylan Hartley)
Knee to the head (Jamie Heaslip)
Eye gouge (Aurelien Rougerie)
Knee to the head (Scott Higginbotham)
Head Butt (Scott Higginbotham)
Swinging forearm to the head (Andy Powell)
Punched (Phil Waugh)
Head stomp (Ali Williams)
Knee to the head (Quade Cooper - twice)
Spear tackled (Lote Tuqiri)
Eye gouge (Kevin McLaughlin)
Swinging forearm to the neck (Phil Waugh)

If you (whoever is reading this) think he deserved everything he got then you're a prick!

You missed the ******** grab and punch that went uncited against South Africa last test by Etzebeth (but somehow missed citing, if you like I can repost it).

If you are playing openside you will of course play as close to a referee's interpretation as possible. If you are an Olympic sprinter you will run as soon as you hear a gunshot. You run beforehand you run the risk of disqualification. You don't meet a ref interpretation in a ruck you get a penalty. In a sport where breakdowns are so technical I think singling out one player as a cheat is pettiness.

Either way, those that think violent acts against McCaw or any player are justified, are pricks.

 

[TobesHodges]

Where was Roman Poite for all this..

NZ to win tomorrow! I think it will still be close but comfortable for the AB..

 

[Kiwi_]

Dirty is as dirty does. Richie has had a talent for being a cheating, brilliant, but cheating ******* for over a decade.

The kiwis see the AB's as white knights who can do no wrong. The reality is they are just as bad as anyone else. At least we admit it.

I hate reading this nonsense, it urks me more than anything. People just yell cheat at McCaw because they think it's the thing to do. Did you know he's only received 2 yellow cards in 141 test matches? Cheat my a$$, sick of this ignorance and idiotic label from fan bases who can't handle his greatness, so they attempt to bring him down to their level or comprehensibility.

 

[ZeroTwo]

I hate reading this nonsense, it urks me more than anything. People just yell cheat at McCaw because they think it's the thing to do. Did you know he's only received 2 yellow cards in 141 test matches? Cheat my a$$, sick of this ignorance and idiotic label from fan bases who can't handle his greatness, so they attempt to bring him down to their level or comprehensibility.

To be fair, he does cheat. He does things regularly against the rules. Point me out a forward who doesn't?! I reckon I could point out 20-30 infringements every game which go unpenalised because they don't impact the game or else are gotten away with slyly. It's impossible to get everything as a ref and letting the game flow is also a priority.

The difference with McCaw is he has the nous to only do it when it'll really make a difference in my opinion. I've seen Scotland flankers use hands in the ruck all the time to little avail, so no one makes a fuss. McCaw will do it once and turn the ball over so everyone jumps on his back. It's a tricky line to walk you know? Because I reckon if Wales were no. 1 in the world with Warburton as their captain he'd have every game analysed and every time he steps over the mark he'd get the same.

Not a bad price for being one of the best flankers of all time though.

 

[Kiwi_]

Poey did it all week vs the All Blacks, and Hooper a number of times they stole the ball when they weren't supporting their own body weight... Then of all people to single out McCaw after all the great things he's done and label him a cheat is just rubbish and makes him feel cheap. It's just bitter and something to jump on because people can't handle his success. Sick of reading it.

 

[goodNumber10]

I hate reading this nonsense, it urks me more than anything. People just yell cheat at McCaw because they think it's the thing to do. Did you know he's only received 2 yellow cards in 141 test matches? Cheat my a$$, sick of this ignorance and idiotic label from fan bases who can't handle his greatness, so they attempt to bring him down to their level or comprehensibility.

None of which means he doesn't/didn't cheat.

 

[RedruthRFC]

To be fair, he does cheat. He does things regularly against the rules.

Exactly. Show me a forward who doesn't "cheat" (in these terms) and I'll show you a bad forward.

IMO a cheat is someone who sets out to deliberately deceive the powers that be (be that the match officials or the organising committee). A player who takes a chooses to risk whatever penalty the law book prescribes by knowingly breaking the laws of the game is far from being a cheat.

To me, anyone who can't make that distinction doesn't understand the game and almost certainly never played it to any sort of level. These people's heads must explode when they watch basketball players give a hard foul to send their opponent to the line!

In short, Dean Richards = cheat, Richie McCaw = flanker.