[2015 RWC] Warm Up Match: New Zealand vs Australia (15/08/2015)

[goodNumber10]

Reason is a fool, but it is interesting that the poor calls by Barnes (linesman) this week haven't been given the same attention/Hysteria they were last week.

I'm just doing some Analysis for G&GR so have had to re-watch the game a couple of times, things that jump out for me:

The Coles Try, imho, should have been a penalty back at the lineout maul, not for the whitelock steal but because of dangerous play. McCaw clearly is lifting Palus legs (front right watched by Owens) and Read clearly collapses the Maul (from the back left watched by Barnes) then him and Skleton roll around cuddling for a bit.

That has a knock on effect into the try because the bulk of both packs are still on the ground when the ball is moved wide and the Aussies can't get back to set a decent defensive line as they are chasing back, whereas the AB's are sweeping forward.

But hey, you go through the game and there are plenty of incidents like that from both sides.

Cheap shots were aplenty, but by both sides:
Nonu consistently hit and fought with AAC off the ball, Smith continued to trip him this week as well as last.
Hooper got a lot of off the balling, he was clearly targetted. But then he also dished it out just as much. He smashed Nonu after the pass had gone in the Coles try and continued to fight with him on the ground.
Nonu spiking the ball in Moores face was uncalled for and yet Owens didn't even say pack it in - electing to speak to the Captains instead, that's fine i suppose but i think he should have spoken to Nonu and Pocock (for retalliation) at that point - the TMO was trying to bring him to that conclusion but he wasn't interested.

Cheapest shot of all was Coopers high tackle, shocking and cost his team 21 points and that's where the game was lost beyond saving, if he'd just gone low he'd have been able to roll Smith - instead he went for a the big finish.

On the Smith/AAC incident i think it was dangerous play, if he'd just mistimed it fair enough, but he took his feet from under him and he landed on his upper body/back (he was clearly in distress when he landed but was ok a second or two later). Either way that was dangerous play and for me a yellow.

Them's the breaks though and ultimately the Aussies just got outplayed due to playing way off the pace of the AB's.

 

[austingtir]

Reason is a fool, but it is interesting that the poor calls by Barnes (linesman) this week haven't been given the same attention/Hysteria they were last week.

The Coles Try, imho, should have been a penalty back at the lineout maul, not for the whitelock steal but because of dangerous play. McCaw clearly is lifting Palus legs (front right watched by Owens) and Read clearly collapses the Maul (from the back left watched by Barnes) then him and Skleton roll around cuddling for a bit.

That has a knock on effect into the try because the bulk of both packs are still on the ground when the ball is moved wide and the Aussies can't get back to set a decent defensive line as they are chasing back, whereas the AB's are sweeping forward.

Clutching at straws much? If the Aussies didnt run a 150kg lock maybe he would of had the legs to get back into position. Its pretty simple stuff. You can clearly see most of the Australian pack meandering back and at a god aweful pace. They have no one to blame but themselves.

I know what your saying regarding the player being "held" but it happens in every match and every ruck and maul. There are guys going through and taking guys out left right and center. I hate it but as long as BOTH teams are getting away with it then **** happens.

+ if the Aussie player wasnt trying to hump Mccaws head there might not of been an issue.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptd7L2nju38

And you admit he made **** calls in this match from the friggin sideline but refute any wrong doing in the previous match?

 

[smartcooky]

The Coles Try, imho, should have been a penalty back at the lineout maul, not for the whitelock steal but because of dangerous play. McCaw clearly is lifting Palus legs (front right watched by Owens) and Read clearly collapses the Maul (from the back left watched by Barnes) then him and Skleton roll around cuddling for a bit.

Well, that is just complete rubbish... not that you think it was Read, but that you think it was clear and obvious.

20:40 Wallabies win the lineout, form the maul and initially go forward

20:45 First McCaw joins the maul, then followed in quick succession by Woodcock and Franks (who rejoined from Barnes' side)

20:50 Now Whitelock, Retallick and Vito rejoin behind them in quick succession and this additional impetus first halts and reverses the direction of the maul.

20:53 By this time the Wallabies are back-pedalling so fast they cannot keep their feet (and nor can the AB's who are running them backwards) and that is the reason why it collapses, which it does on both sides at the same time. IMO this is a "no fault" collapse.

I don't know how you come to the conclusion that anything Read was doing was clear and obvious. When assessing for a deliberate collapse you have to look at the whole maul and decide if the actions of one or more players from the same team were clearly and obviously the sole reason it went down (materiality).

If the actions two or more players from opposing teams (in this case you mention Read and Skelton) might be the reason for a collapse, then its play-on.

Read was entitled to be where he was because he was in the middle when the maul was formed and came through there.

 

[goodNumber10]

Well, that is just complete rubbish.

20:40 Wallabies win the lineout, form the maul and initially go forward

20:45 First McCaw joins the maul, the followed in quick succession by Woodcock and Franks who rejoined

20:50 Now Whitelock, Retallick and Vito rejoin behind them in quick succession and this additional impetus first halts and reverses the direction.

20:53 By this time the Wallabies are backpedalling so fast they cannot keep their feet, and that is the reason why it collapses, which it does on both sides at the same time. IMO this is a "no fault" collapse. I don't know how you can say that anything Read was doing was clear and obvious. He was entitled to be where he was because he was there when the maul was formed and came through the middle.

McCaw Cleary lifts Palus leg, pushing him off balance, and losing momentum at which point the Maul starts to go sideways.

Read comes around legally, i haven't said anything else, but he stands behind Skelton and pulls him by the waist and clearly drops his weight collapsing that side of the maul which now moving sideways goes over and collapses.

It's a collapsed maul, collapsed by the All Blacks.

Hooper breaks off and is isolated because everyone is on the ground, gets turned over.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrAAo5wtS5U

1:57 - McCAw Lifting Leg and driving Palu sideways arresting momentum of maul
2:01 - Read drops his weight pulling Skelton backwards and down pulling that side down, on the otherside McCaw drops his weight and takes that side down.

For me that's collapsing the maul on purpose - the rest of the try AFAIC is fine.

I picked that up in real time, during the live broadcast so yes, i think it as clear and obvious as Skelton would not have lost his feet if Read hadn't pulled him down, and McCaw is clearly lifting players legs in athe Maul (which i thought was illegal).

 

[smartcooky]

<snipped>

What's the problem, you got no answer so you resort to adhominems?

How about you address the post not attack the poster!

 

[goodNumber10]

What's the problem, you got no answer so you resort to adhominems?

How about you address the post not attack the poster!

I have.

 

[smartcooky]

I have.

Posting a silly image instead of a real answer is not addressing the post (although some of us have noticed that is what you seem to do when the going gets tough)

 

[goodNumber10]

Posting a silly image instead of a real answer is not addressing the post (although some of us have noticed that is what you seem to do when the going gets tough)

did you miss all the writing underneath it, explaining how i see it?

Not sure you saying "well that's just rubbish" is exactly making the going tough, I don't agree with your points - there is some parity of course but i think you are giving the benefit of the doubt to your own team, whereas I'm not - possibly because i have no affiliation to either side.

You may not agree that Read pulls Skelton and that side of the Maul down but do you agree that McCaw is lifting Palu's leg prior to it losing momentum and then collapsing?

 

[Mcfadden]

Side note: The All Blacks have been fined $2,000 for Liam Messam interfering in that fight as the 'waterboy.' Clearly was not assigned his usual capacity of a rugby player; he was meant to be a support personnel and nothing else. Seems even when he's not playing he's copping penalties. I'm afraid to say, when things get heated or intense he's another guy who enters thug mode. Ma'a Nonu use to do the same thing.

 

[goodNumber10]

Side note: Liam Messam has been fined $2,000 for interfering in that fight as the 'waterboy.' Clearly was not assigned his usual capacity of a rugby player; he was meant to be a support personnel and nothing else.

he was in a beanie hat with a big WATER vest on, it was disgraceful, $2000 is pretty lenient imho.

 

[Mcfadden]

Also, my bad. Edited that to say the All Blacks have copped the fine, not Messam personally. But I suspect they'll dock his pay or something so the Union isn't out of pocket. Not really sure how it works.

 

[TRF_heineken]

did you miss all the writing underneath it, explaining how i see it?

Not sure you saying "well that's just rubbish" is exactly making the going tough, I don't agree with your points - there is some parity of course but i think you are giving the benefit of the doubt to your own team, whereas I'm not - possibly because i have no affiliation to either side.

You may not agree that Read pulls Skelton and that side of the Maul down but do you agree that McCaw is lifting Palu's leg prior to it losing momentum and then collapsing?

To be fair to @smartcooky, you first put up the one-eyed picture alone. then he replied to your picture, and then you inserted the comments below.

 

[austingtir]

To be fair to @smartcooky, you first put up the one-eyed picture alone. then he replied to your picture, and then you inserted the comments below.

This guy posting that picture is about the richest thing iv seen on this forum yet. Seriously if I said what I really wanted to say regarding GN10's posts on here.

Why is this guy even allowed to post in any NZ threads FFS? He's nothing but **** stirrer imo. Anybody with half a clue about the game can see everything he's mentioned are just absolute nothings in the context of the game.

What id really like to know GN10 is why werent you bleating on like this when Barnes let Hooper and Pocock run rampant illegaly the week before? That was probably the second or third biggest travesty in international rugby this year behind the Wales vs Ireland game but probably not the SA vs Argentina game.

 

[goodNumber10]

To be fair to @smartcooky, you first put up the one-eyed picture alone. then he replied to your picture, and then you inserted the comments below.

That is just a complete lie.

All that text was there before his reply was posted, which is why i posted the "I have", some of it was edited afterwards but there bulk of the text was there when the picture was posted.

- - - Updated - - -

This guy posting that picture is about the richest thing iv seen on this forum yet. Seriously if I said what I really wanted to say regarding GN10's posts on here.

Why is this guy even allowed to post in any NZ threads FFS? He's nothing but **** stirrer imo.

roff, the ultimate ironic post?

I'm allowed to post in any thread i want, most of my posts are constructive and far more informed than 90% of the people on here (including yours) Ultimately you're just annoyed because I've illustrated that maybe the try shouldn't have been awarded because of NZ foul play.

The sh*t stirring is clearly in Smartcookies belittling and insulting reply to my original post.

 

[TRF_heineken]

That is just a complete lie.

All that text was there before his reply was posted, which is why i posted the "I have", some of it was edited afterwards but there bulk of the text was there when the picture was posted.

- - - Updated - - -



roff, the ultimate ironic post?

I'm allowed to post in any thread i want, most of my posts are constructive and far more informed than 90% of the people on here (including yours) Ultimately you're just annoyed because I've illustrated that maybe the try shouldn't have been awarded because of NZ foul play.

The sh*t stirring is clearly in Smartcookies belittling and insulting reply to my original post.

It's not a complete lie. I was in this thread when you made the original post. Then he made the comment and then you edited the post. Maybe you were busy editing it in another window while Cooky was replying, I don't know. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but you are making it extremely hard on yourself.

 

[goodNumber10]

It's not a complete lie. I was in this thread when you made the original post. Then he made the comment and then you edited the post. Maybe you were busy editing it in another window while Cooky was replying, I don't know. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but you are making it extremely hard on yourself.

I posted the picture with the first part of the text below it... which was this:

"McCaw Cleary lifts Palus leg, pushing him off balance, and losing momentum at which point the Maul starts to go sideways.

Read comes around legally, i haven't said anything else, but he stands behind Skelton and pulls him by the waist and clearly drops his weight collapsing that side of the maul which now moving sideways goes over and collapses.

It's a collapsed maul, collapsed by the All Blacks."

I then added the video and the time breakdowns later - which is absolutely no different to SC going back and editing his original post to be a bit more amenable after i'd replied to it.

Either way i like how everyone is now focusing on that, rather than addressing the valid points in my posts .


**** I'm looking at the edit history and it's showing the original post had picture and text?

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

no i didn't.

I posted the picture with the first part of the text below it... which was this:


I then added the video and the time breakdowns later - which is absolutely no different to SC going back and editing his original post to be a bit more amenable after i'd replied to it.

Either way i like how everyone is now focusing on that, rather than addressing the valid points in my posts .

Your first post was at 7:37, and and that was just the photo.

SC replied at 8:02, you then edited your post at 8:06.

We can check these things, you know?

 

[TobesHodges]

busted..

 

[goodNumber10]

Your first post was at 7:37, and and that was just the photo.

SC replied at 8:02, you then edited your post at 8:06.

We can check these things, you know?

I know you can check, as can i by clicking edit history then selecting the original post - my edit history clearly shows the picture and the opening text in the original post.

Hold on i'm trying to grab a snip of it...

 

[smartcooky]

Yeah, busted, and dishonest.

It's a collapsed maul, collapsed by the All Blacks.

Well, I disagree, but I'll humour you for the moment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrAAo5wtS5U

1:57 - McCAw Lifting Leg and driving Palu sideways arresting momentum of maul

You are seeing things with your G&GR eye-patch. McCaw, like any good mauling forward, is actually driving inwards and upwards, which he is quite entitled to do. Regardless of whether he has his arm around Palu's thigh, he would still be driving in and up the same way, so its immaterial. If he was not driving and instead only trying to lift Palu's leg, then I would agree with you, but he isn't, so I don't

2:01 - Read drops his weight pulling Skelton backwards and down pulling that side down, on the otherside McCaw drops his weight and takes that side down.
For me that's collapsing the maul on purpose - the rest of the try AFAIC is fine.

All we can see is that Read and Skelton are wrestling but its hard to tell if anything else is going on because we never see a close up view from Camera 6 (the sideline steadycam on that side of the field); the only view we get is from Camera 2 (the second elevated platform camera). If you reckon you see this as clear and obvious on TV, from the wrong side and 80 metres away, then you must have Superman vision. This all happens right in front of Wayne Barnes and I am 100% certain that, of all referees, he would call it in if Read even looked like he might have collapsed the maul.

I picked that up in real time, during the live broadcast so yes, i think it as clear and obvious as Skelton would not have lost his feet if Read hadn't pulled him down, and McCaw is clearly lifting players legs in athe Maul (which i thought was illegal).

Bwwhahaha! I totally doubt that. Someone who is clearly and obviously as anti-New Zealand as you are would have been whining about that from the get-go if you saw it live.

I have to say though that I am not I'm not surprised you see it the way you do. You work for G&GR; a website that publishes match analyses and columns that are more outright, one-eyed pro-Australian biased than any other place on the web, even SMH.