[2015 RWC] Bronze Final: South Africa vs. Argentina (30/10/2015)

[Sker]

It would be cool if Habana gets that try, would be a good send off for him

 

[TRF_heineken]

Yeah that was a plus, I just miss our clever kicks into the opponents half where we could try and compete for the lineout. Either we overkick or we just kick to the back three these days, maybe bring on Butch as a kicking coach? Or am I just remembering his glory days too fondly..

I personally feel there is a bunch of better kicking coaches than Louis Koen in South Africa, and some old players might even do a better job than him, Butch, Derrick Hougaard, Jannie De Beer...

But the thing is that our opponents have also evolved, especially in the kick-return facet of the game. our dominant kicking display of the 2009-2011 era isn't so effective anymore due to the new defensive patterns other teams use.

 

[Sker]

Not much you can do if the opponent kicks a flat ball into your 22. much better than an up and under which can be marked

 

[BakkiesBokke]

http://m.news24.com/sport24/Columnists/TankLanning/Bok-coach-Time-for-change-has-come-20151029

I think he will get the sack. Also check out Mark Keohane's article. The vultures are circling. Not sure who we would install as a replacement? Ackermann?

 

[WaterboySA]

"Tank is a former Western Province tighthead prop" - that says it all about the writer of that article, lol. Keohane has some bad history with the Bokke, can't believe anyone would read his articles about rugby. It would be silly to get Ackers to try and coach the Boks. Let him first do something with a Superrugby team. Currycup doesn't mean anything internationally?

 

[TheOvalBall]

http://m.news24.com/sport24/Columnists/TankLanning/Bok-coach-Time-for-change-has-come-20151029

I think he will get the sack. Also check out Mark Keohane's article. The vultures are circling. Not sure who we would install as a replacement? Ackermann?

Ackermann is the most ridiculous of options. I can't believe people are suggesting him. He won the Currie Cup. And ?
He is still nowhere in Super Rugby. This is pure desperation.

When Ackermann's Lions come up against good teams, they lose quite comfortably. Brumbies, Crusaders etc.

 

[TRF_heineken]

http://m.news24.com/sport24/Columnists/TankLanning/Bok-coach-Time-for-change-has-come-20151029

I think he will get the sack. Also check out Mark Keohane's article. The vultures are circling. Not sure who we would install as a replacement? Ackermann?

"Tank is a former Western Province tighthead prop" - that says it all about the writer of that article, lol. Keohane has some bad history with the Bokke, can't believe anyone would read his articles about rugby. It would be silly to get Ackers to try and coach the Boks. Let him first do something with a Superrugby team. Currycup doesn't mean anything internationally?

Yeah, I'm with Lourens here.

Tank Lanning has never ever written anything good about Heyneke Meyer. And Mark Keohane, has just an ANC pawn always writing a load of drivel trying to get attention.

I never read the opinion articles on Sport24 as they are the most biased, boring articles you will ever read, about any sport.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Tank and Keohane both have chips on their shoulders. Heynecke had his chance. Louis Koen is a crook and I can say this from first hand experience and he can take me to court because I can prove it.

I say let Meyer (for lack of options unless someone suddenly appears out of nowhere) have two years and then we do a Cheika and promote Eddie Jones for 2018 onwards after the Stormers add two SR trophies to our cabinet.

 

[WaterboySA]

TO be honest, I think we can open a thread on Eddie Jones.....Yes he did good with Australia, but he's not coaching them anymore and there's a reason for that. Yes Japan won the game....I don't think that will EVER happen again. Thing is, coaches win and those same coaches sometimes lose. Eddie Jones is not God's gift to Coaching. Not many coaches will take all the nonsense Heynecke took and stay on. It's one job I don't want.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Tank and Keohane both have chips on their shoulders. Heynecke had his chance. Louis Koen is a crook and I can say this from first hand experience and he can take me to court because I can prove it.

I say let Meyer (for lack of options unless someone suddenly appears out of nowhere) have two years and then we do a Cheika and promote Eddie Jones for 2018 onwards after the Stormers add two SR trophies to our cabinet.

Haha.

Look, I'm all for not giving HM another 4 year contract, but that does bring in other problems to consider. I however think they should extend his contract by at least 2 years, see what happens from this point onwards and then do a yearly review.

 

[TheOvalBall]

Problem is, if Meyer goes, who do you replace him with ? There are very little options. I think a 2 year extension is good, but there needs to be some clauses in his contract that state something along these lines

1) Permanently employ an expansive game
2) 1 Rugby Championship trophy at the very least, with all tests won prior and after.

 

[SomeOke]

The old guard of South African rugby coaches hasn't evolved enough for the modern game in my opinion, strangely enough I feel like HM has probably evolved the most and I would rather have him for another 4 years than White, Coetzee, Drotske etc.

That said I really feel like this would be a great time for a change, mostly in mentality. There is room in rugby to play a physical, territorial game, without neglecting your back line all together. The Aussies and New Zealanders kick just as much as we do but it is not the only arrow in their quiver, if we want to keep up and not be left behind we need to change our thinking.

In terms of coaching that could mean three things; 1) We hire a foreigner (which I'm happy to see us do for four years, hopefully that will illustrate to SA coaches that there is more than one way to play the game). 2) We hire a South African who has proven their ability to adapt (in this case there is only Ackerman, inexperienced or not he would be my local choice). 3) One of the old guard needs to realize that our current tactics aren't working - I actually agree with Heineken that HM was changing, and he is capable of playing a different type of rugby, but in the end he was caught in two minds, I'm not sure HM actually knew what type of rugby we were going to play this WC until the Japan loss which is not the best platform for success.

Honestly as long as they don't appoint Ludeke or Coetzee I'm happy, I'm more excited for new players potentially entering the squad.

 

[BakkiesBokke]

Yeah I know what you mean about Tank and Mark - they rant when we are winning or losing - nonetheless I found both their articles interesting. I think Rob Houwing is a bit more rounded in his analysis of the current predicament. If Meyer stays I think we need to look at some of the other management staff. The players seem to like Meyer - although it is difficult to be certain away from the dressing room. I don't think du Preez needed to come out in defence of Meyer so perhaps that says something?

JA got the Lions to punch above their weight in the Currie Cup, so it will be interesting to see where he is 2-3 years from now. If he can get his team into play-offs again this year, it will suggest he really is building something.

 

[TRF_heineken]

The old guard of South African rugby coaches hasn't evolved enough for the modern game in my opinion, strangely enough I feel like HM has probably evolved the most and I would rather have him for another 4 years than White, Coetzee, Drotske etc.

That said I really feel like this would be a great time for a change, mostly in mentality. There is room in rugby to play a physical, territorial game, without neglecting your back line all together. The Aussies and New Zealanders kick just as much as we do but it is not the only arrow in their quiver, if we want to keep up and not be left behind we need to change our thinking.

In terms of coaching that could mean three things; 1) We hire a foreigner (which I'm happy to see us do for four years, hopefully that will illustrate to SA coaches that there is more than one way to play the game). 2) We hire a South African who has proven their ability to adapt (in this case there is only Ackerman, inexperienced or not he would be my local choice). 3) One of the old guard needs to realize that our current tactics aren't working - I actually agree with Heineken that HM was changing, and he is capable of playing a different type of rugby, but in the end he was caught in two minds, I'm not sure HM actually knew what type of rugby we were going to play this WC until the Japan loss which is not the best platform for success.

Honestly as long as they don't appoint Ludeke or Coetzee I'm happy, I'm more excited for new players potentially entering the squad.

The thing is Ludeke is now working with Fiji National team. Allistair Coetzee is coaching in Japan, Jake White is in France, and Naka Drotske has left rugby completely (and to the better of the Cheetahs IMHO).

The guys left are young new guys, apart from Gary Gold.

I think we need to look at our assistant coaches. Ricardo Loubscher, Richie Gray, John Mcfarland, and Johan van Graan. They should be looked at and see if we can maybe get someone better. I personally think we have to start with Loubscher. Our backline needs some more guidance, especially due to the youngsters who will now take over. And here I think we need to look at someone more creative, maybe someone that played at fly half or centre, and maybe even a kiwi... Perhaps Carlos Spencer would be interested?

 

[The Jones Boy]

Can't see South Africa losing this one...

 

[Bo Jandals]

The thing is Ludeke is now working with Fiji National team. Allistair Coetzee is coaching in Japan, Jake White is in France, and Naka Drotske has left rugby completely (and to the better of the Cheetahs IMHO).

The guys left are young new guys, apart from Gary Gold.

I think we need to look at our assistant coaches. Ricardo Loubscher, Richie Gray, John Mcfarland, and Johan van Graan. They should be looked at and see if we can maybe get someone better. I personally think we have to start with Loubscher. Our backline needs some more guidance, especially due to the youngsters who will now take over. And here I think we need to look at someone more creative, maybe someone that played at fly half or centre, and maybe even a kiwi... Perhaps Carlos Spencer would be interested?

Wayne Smith is the unsung hero in my books for back play during his tenure, the Australians have a front row now thanks to the Argentinian coach. I don't think HM is that bad as much as he's made out to be especially with his oldies finally leaving his golden head-ache.

I'm not sure if HM planned how the new Bok players all of a sudden became stars eg De Allende/Pollard/Kriel etc etc but it was only 2 points at the end of the day.

HM has more to offer than just 2 points, put it this way......out with the old and in with the new, he's bred players

 

[TRF_heineken]

Wayne Smith is the unsung hero in my books for back play during his tenure, the Australians have a front row now thanks to the Argentinian coach. I don't think HM is that bad as much as he's made out to be especially with his oldies finally leaving his golden head-ache.

I'm not sure if HM planned how the new Bok players all of a sudden became stars eg De Allende/Pollard/Kriel etc etc but it was only 2 points at the end of the day.

HM has more to offer than just 2 points, put it this way......out with the old and in with the new, he's bred players

oh for sure.

His breeding of stars started with Pierre Spies. HM saw him playing on the wing for his high school, and then said to him he must transition to no. 8. And he become a powerhouse.

HM was the one that scouted Jesse Kriel when he was 16. During the Grant Khomo rugby week. He instructed the Bulls scouts to approach him and eventually they got him and his brother.

But let's look at the old guns. Jean De Villiers, Victor Matfield, Schalk Burger and Fourie Du Preez. 3 out of the 4 performed very well this whole year and if it wasn't for some of them, I think we wouldn't have made it to the semi's.

But we finally have a chance to build a great legacy here. All our youngsters have been now part of the group for at least a year, maybe 2. And you can see the trust between the players and the coach, why don't we want to see where this can go?

 

[The Jones Boy]

You do have a point there heinie, history has shown us that teams that have continuity with their coaches perform strongly at RWC's.

 

[Ospervat]

Ackermann is the most ridiculous of options. I can't believe people are suggesting him. He won the Currie Cup. And ?
He is still nowhere in Super Rugby. This is pure desperation.

When Ackermann's Lions come up against good teams, they lose quite comfortably. Brumbies, Crusaders etc.

Remember Rudolf Straeuli. Can't believe we would go down that road again.

 

[Bo Jandals]

oh for sure.

His breeding of stars started with Pierre Spies. HM saw him playing on the wing for his high school, and then said to him he must transition to no. 8. And he become a powerhouse.

HM was the one that scouted Jesse Kriel when he was 16. During the Grant Khomo rugby week. He instructed the Bulls scouts to approach him and eventually they got him and his brother.

But let's look at the old guns. Jean De Villiers, Victor Matfield, Schalk Burger and Fourie Du Preez. 3 out of the 4 performed very well this whole year and if it wasn't for some of them, I think we wouldn't have made it to the semi's.

But we finally have a chance to build a great legacy here. All our youngsters have been now part of the group for at least a year, maybe 2. And you can see the trust between the players and the coach, why don't we want to see where this can go?

Within the next 4 years, would you mention the word "peaking"? Would you mention the word "choking"?

We're a fickle bunch