[2015 RWC] Bronze Final: South Africa vs. Argentina (30/10/2015)

[Wakaloo]

Both teams have been announced.

South Africa:

1. Tendai Mtawarira
2. Bismarck du Plessis
3. Frans Malherbe
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Victor Matfield (captain)
6. Francois Louw
7. Schalk Burger
8. Duane Vermeulen
9. Ruan Pienaar
10. Handré Pollard
11. Bryan Habana
12. Damian De Allende
13. Jesse Kriel
14. JP Pietersen
15. Willie le Roux
Replacements:
16. Adriaan Strauss
17. Trevor Nyakane
18. Jannie du Plessis
19. Lodewyk de Jager
20. Willem Alberts
21. Rudy Paige
22. Pat Lambie
23. Jan Serfontein


Argentina:

1. Marcos Ayerza
2. Julian Montoya
3. Ramiro Herrera
4. Matias Alemanno
5. Tomas Lavanini
6. Javier Ortega Desio
7. Juan Martin Fernandez Lobbe
8. Juan Manuel Leguizamon
9. Tomas Cubelli
10. Nicolas Sanchez (captain)
11. Horacio Agulla
12. Jeronimo De La Fuente
13. Matias Moroni
14. Santiago Cordero
15. Lucas Gonzalez Amorosino
Replacements:
16. Lucas Noguera
17. Juan Pablo Orlandi
18. Juan Figallo
19. Guido Petti
20. Facundo Isa
21. Martin Landajo
22. Santiago Gonzalez Iglesias
23. Juan Pablo Socino

 

[ABs2011]

Apologies if this has already been discussed, but I started reading this thread and most of the first couple pages were people b!tching.

Question: What is the game plan for this game for SA? Let's be fair, in the big games so far SA have basically played a 10 (at best 11) man game. Are they gonna open it up a bit fromthe start? I hope so. Nothing to lose and all that, but on the other hand why divert from what your game plan has been all along? Anyway, just wondered what our SA friends thought about how this game might go down.

BIG chance for Habana to re-write the record books if SA choose to open it up a bit!!

 

[Ospervat]

Given the only change from the 23 selected for the semi is FdP out, Pienaar starting and Paige on the bench, I don't see there being too much of a change in playing style. It's going to be the same old stuff which is hard to understand given that Argentina are up for that style of play up front.

I hope they will give Kriel and De Allende a chance to shine. They are better than we have seen this WC.

Argentina have flair in the backs and if they can reduce handling errors will be a threat.
I do think they will miss Imhoff and Bosch however.

 

[nik]

That is a very depleted Argentina team missing key players (almost half their starting line up from last week).

Boks should be strong favourites IMO even with the limited playing style.

 

[Fard]

South Africa will do this in a canter. Argentina played their final last weekend. The Boks are still looking to save some face after there poor RC and RWC.

 

[TheOvalBall]

Pat Lambie should've started. What the hell ?

 

[The Jones Boy]

I can see Heineken Meyer getting the sack after this game.
I don't think much of him as a coach.
He is a liability.
South Africa is full of talented rugby players and this bloke couldn't organise a drink up in a brewery.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Apologies if this has already been discussed, but I started reading this thread and most of the first couple pages were people b!tching.

Question: What is the game plan for this game for SA? Let's be fair, in the big games so far SA have basically played a 10 (at best 11) man game. Are they gonna open it up a bit fromthe start? I hope so. Nothing to lose and all that, but on the other hand why divert from what your game plan has been all along? Anyway, just wondered what our SA friends thought about how this game might go down.

BIG chance for Habana to re-write the record books if SA choose to open it up a bit!!

We will play a style that will get us a win, whether it is defensive 10-man rugby or expansive rugby, or both. The aim is to win the game and to give the old stalwarts a good send-off. That has also been said in the press conference.

If I were to take a guess, I think we will play a similar type of game like we did in the warm-up match in Argentina, just with less errors.

I can see Heineken Meyer getting the sack after this game.
I don't think much of him as a coach.
He is a liability.
South Africa is full of talented rugby players and this bloke couldn't organise a drink up in a brewery.

Nothing positive to say ever?

He is not a liability. And what he has achieved with the Springboks is in my view inspiring. He has a 67% win record with the Boks. I think only Cheika and Hansen can boast with a higher win record than him.

He was given scraps to work with after PDV left 4 years ago and HM had to start from scratch. He took Lood De Jager from Varsity Rugby straight into the Springbok camp before Lood even played a single proffessional match! HM moved Jesse Kriel to centre.

He has done a lot of things right, and some things wrong too. No coach is perfect, but show me one coach in World Rugby that is more passionate, proud and enthusiastic about his squad than him. He has to overcome more obstacles than any other coach in WORLD RUGBY. You have no idea the amount of pressure he has to endure to get a well balanced team that is politically correct.

And besides, who will replace him at this moment? The chance is there that he might get sacked, but I think that would be a dumb, very narrow-minded move. Also did you know that he gave more black players a chance than any other Springbok coach before him, yes, even PDV didn't play as many black players as HM!

HM has a better win record than Jake White FFS!

 

[ABs2011]

We will play a style that will get us a win, whether it is defensive 10-man rugby or expansive rugby, or both. The aim is to win the game and to give the old stalwarts a good send-off. That has also been said in the press conference.

If I were to take a guess, I think we will play a similar type of game like we did in the warm-up match in Argentina, just with less errors.



Nothing positive to say ever?

He is not a liability. And what he has achieved with the Springboks is in my view inspiring. He has a 67% win record with the Boks. I think only Cheika and Hansen can boast with a higher win record than him.

He was given scraps to work with after PDV left 4 years ago and HM had to start from scratch. He took Lood De Jager from Varsity Rugby straight into the Springbok camp before Lood even played a single proffessional match! HM moved Jesse Kriel to centre.

He has done a lot of things right, and some things wrong too. No coach is perfect, but show me one coach in World Rugby that is more passionate, proud and enthusiastic about his squad than him. He has to overcome more obstacles than any other coach in WORLD RUGBY. You have no idea the amount of pressure he has to endure to get a well balanced team that is politically correct.

And besides, who will replace him at this moment? The chance is there that he might get sacked, but I think that would be a dumb, very narrow-minded move. Also did you know that he gave more black players a chance than any other Springbok coach before him, yes, even PDV didn't play as many black players as HM!

HM has a better win record than Jake White FFS!

I suspect this point is lost on many outside of SA, or not fully understood. I didnt realise the sitatuion over there until I had a chat with a SA lad in my cricket team. Makes a tough job much tougher!!

I hope they given the ball a bit of air. There are some good players in the backline, I dont fully get why they dont see much ball. Habana, Peterson, Kriel, Le Roux. These guys can all do massive damage, but not without the ball... Get them the ball, get Habana Lomu's record, and nail down 3rd place.

To be honest I think SA wins this one comfortably!

 

[Counties NZ]

You have no idea the amount of pressure he has to endure to get a well balanced team that is politically correct.
!

that truly is the saddest thing ive read on this forum. I couldn't give a flying rats arse if my team was all white or all black, you pick your best 15, it really is that simple.
I had no idea you guys are still dealing with all that, my sincere condolences

 

[The Jones Boy]

Nothing positive to say ever?!

I believe it is a positive thing to say, there are a HUGE number of Bok fans who want him gone. They are saying exactly this...
Why?
Because he's rubbish.
PDV was the secret weapon the rest of the world had against the Springboks.
Meyer is the secret weapon the Wallabies and All Blacks have against the Springboks, yes he's better than PDV but a shaved gorilla would do a better job than PDV.
Making comparisons of Meyer against PDV is a waste of time PDV was for me the worst Bok coach ever but remember that De Villiers is the first Springbok coach since Nick Mallet to have a 100% win record over the All Blacks in a single year (2009). De Villiers is also the first coach since Nelie Smith to have secured a series win over the British and Irish Lions.
What silverware has HM brought to your table?
A first ever loss to Argentina and that was on your own soil.
Meyer is rubbish and the Bok fans in the majority want to see the back of him.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I believe it is a positive thing to say, there are a HUGE number of Bok fans who want him gone. They are saying exactly this...
Why?
Because he's rubbish.
PDV was the secret weapon the rest of the world had against the Springboks.
Meyer is the secret weapon the Wallabies and All Blacks have against the Springboks, yes he's better than PDV but a shaved gorilla would do a better job than PDV.
Making comparisons of Meyer against PDV is a waste of time PDV was for me the worst Bok coach ever but remember that De Villiers is the first Springbok coach since Nick Mallet to have a 100% win record over the All Blacks in a single year (2009). De Villiers is also the first coach since Nelie Smith to have secured a series win over the British and Irish Lions.
What silverware has HM brought to your table?
A first ever loss to Argentina and that was on your own soil.
Meyer is rubbish and the Bok fans in the majority want to see the back of him.

It's easy for you as a kiwi to sit and throw insults at a team not in the same position as yours. HM has brought a lot to the table. A lot more than PDV. And I think it is a fair comparison as you can only take the previous coach and compare the most recent results, due to rule changes, and personnel. PDV and HM played mostly with the same core of players. PDV also had the luxury of getting World Cup winners on a silver platter from Jake White to win the B&I Lions, and man that also nearly didn't happen.

I also think that you are wrong that many fans want to see him sacked. But then again, if they weren't Blue Bulls Supporters, they already wanted him to be sacked even before he was appointed as the coach. But I think he made a lot of those naysayers turn into his favour.

Every team gets losses at some point, that's just how sport works. We went through a total mindshift of how to play test rugby, and HM had the balls to pick players that weren't conventional Springbok players. Willie Le Roux as prime example. All of a sudden we scored tries from inside our own 22, we attacked from the backline more than with our forwards. But because this was new territory for us, it opened a lot of defensive issues as well, and we got punished. But we learn from that and took it into our stride. Even with our losses people still backed us to perhaps win the World Cup. Most still believe that we are still the best team at toppling the All Blacks, and we damn near did it this past weekend again!

Perhaps you should come and walk in our shoes before you so go and spew this crap!

 

[ABs2011]

Hieneken, what happened with that attacking rugby? I note you said HM took over and you were scoring tries from inside ur 22, but I havent seen any of that from SA excpet for the tail end of games they had sloly got the upper hand in - i.e. USA, Scotland. Maybe I havent been keeping a close enough eye on them, but to me it looked they they all but shut down their backline for the knock-out games. Am I right and if so why? Seems like a waste of perfectly good talent!

 

[TRF_heineken]

Hieneken, what happened with that attacking rugby? I note you said HM took over and you were scoring tries from inside ur 22, but I havent seen any of that from SA excpet for the tail end of games they had sloly got the upper hand in - i.e. USA, Scotland. Maybe I havent been keeping a close enough eye on them, but to me it looked they they all but shut down their backline for the knock-out games. Am I right and if so why? Seems like a waste of perfectly good talent!

Because it's risky. In knockout games we try to limit the risk as much as possible. We rather kick the ball out of our own 22 and risk getting the penalty against us. Maybe it's a wrong move, maybe not. But for a team that always have good kickers in the team, it's a more sensible option, than try to run it out of our own 22. We tried it once against New Zealand in the Semi-final and we got punished, and against Wales we were playing catch-up rugby nearly the whole game, we had to get to their red zone and get points to stay in the game.

 

[ABs2011]

Because it's risky. In knockout games we try to limit the risk as much as possible. We rather kick the ball out of our own 22 and risk getting the penalty against us. Maybe it's a wrong move, maybe not. But for a team that always have good kickers in the team, it's a more sensible option, than try to run it out of our own 22. We tried it once against New Zealand in the Semi-final and we got punished, and against Wales we were playing catch-up rugby nearly the whole game, we had to get to their red zone and get points to stay in the game.

Mmmm.... So of course theres a trade off, and I'm not going as far as to say I think it was the wrong move, but it does seem SA went to the extreme to mitigate risk. The SAs are talented enough for me to think there is a middle ground that perhaps might have been a better option. I guess we will never know. I was just suprised I guess at the extent to which they went into their shell. Particulalry fter seeing some ver attacking rugby from them in recent years.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Mmmm.... So of course theres a trade off, and I'm not going as far as to say I think it was the wrong move, but it does seem SA went to the extreme to mitigate risk. The SAs are talented enough for me to think there is a middle ground that perhaps might have been a better option. I guess we will never know. I was just suprised I guess at the extent to which they went into their shell. Particulalry fter seeing some ver attacking rugby from them in recent years.

I think the Rugby Championship 2015 had a lot to do with that. We went into the RC with the plan to evolve our running game even more from last year that brought some success. But then we lost all 3 games in the RC, with the Aus and NZ game going down to the wire. Our loss against Japan made the running game-plan even less of an option, and we had no other choice but to revert to our strengths. Play a forward dominated game, don't play too expansively and minimise the risk. Our wins against Samoa and Scotland were due to our forwards dominating up front.

It's a case of "coulda, woulda, shoulda". I personally think we did go the correct route against New Zealand in our game plan, many doesn't think so. But I would rather take a loss on the chin where we lost by the narrowest of margins than a blow-out like the France match against New Zealand.

As Stormer has said so many times before, this team of ours needs another 4 years to be World Cup winning players. But HM has an unbelievable eye in getting young players in important positions and making them the stars. Our 21-year old Fly Half that had a 100% success rate at kicking for goal against New Zealand in the Semi's is proof of that.

 

[Sker]

Because it's risky. In knockout games we try to limit the risk as much as possible. We rather kick the ball out of our own 22 and risk getting the penalty against us. Maybe it's a wrong move, maybe not. But for a team that always have good kickers in the team, it's a more sensible option, than try to run it out of our own 22. We tried it once against New Zealand in the Semi-final and we got punished, and against Wales we were playing catch-up rugby nearly the whole game, we had to get to their red zone and get points to stay in the game.

Ya but to be fair Hein our kicking and escape plans were utter **** so it's not much use then.

EDIT:

We're missing the kicking prowess of someone like Butch James/Percy and Steyn. If they kicked out of the 22 we usually had a lineout near half way.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Ya but to be fair Hein our kicking and escape plans were utter **** so it's not much use then.

EDIT:

We're missing the kicking prowess of someone like Butch James/Percy and Steyn. If they kicked out of the 22 we usually had a lineout near half way.

Yeah, and I think HM would have loved to take Frans Steyn along too. But Frans was not in good place and his frame of mind was nowhere close to the game, which was understandable.

But I thought our tactical kicking in the Semi's were better than what it was all year. I can't remember the last time we had our chasers collect the ball in the air more than once in a game, we did it 4 times against New Zealand. That is a major step up!

 

[Sker]

Yeah, and I think HM would have loved to take Frans Steyn along too. But Frans was not in good place and his frame of mind was nowhere close to the game, which was understandable.

But I thought our tactical kicking in the Semi's were better than what it was all year. I can't remember the last time we had our chasers collect the ball in the air more than once in a game, we did it 4 times against New Zealand. That is a major step up!

Yeah that was a plus, I just miss our clever kicks into the opponents half where we could try and compete for the lineout. Either we overkick or we just kick to the back three these days, maybe bring on Butch as a kicking coach? Or am I just remembering his glory days too fondly..

 

[WaterboySA]

I'm happy Handre's playing. We lost with 2 points against the AB's. Some SA supporters say it could've been more. I say nonsense, if we won that game with 1 point those same people would say a win is a win.

I think it would be idiotic to fire the coach. Give him until after the next WC, with the string of young guys coming through.