[2014 TRC] Australia v South Africa in Perth (06/09/2014)

[goodNumber10]

What's so funny about that?? The article said Jacques Potgieter was Brad Thorn-like for the Waratahs. Which he was indeed. Did you watch any of the Waratahs games this season? Potgieter was mostly used at Lock, and he added the mongrel-effect to their pack. And that is what the article was about.

I was actually in awe of Potgieter. When he was at the Bulls, he was a bit nowhere after his first season, and this sort of "resurrection" he went through this season was great to see.

No need to be patronising. Yes I watched the tahs. Poitgeter was excellent but I don't see the comparison to Thorn.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Williams?? Do you mean Chester??

On the whole prop thing. We have been trying out young props, don't forget that. The problem is that they get injured the whole damn time!!

I see that we have 4 tighthead props playing Currie Cup at the moment, who are springboks. Werner Kruger (Blue Bulls), Pat Cilliers (WP), Lourens Adriaanse (Sharks) and CJ van der Linde (EP Kings). Why don't we get one or two of them in the mix?? even if it's just to scrum. They can't go worse than Jannie, can they?

LOL, no I was refering to the Welsh fullback. If I'm not mistaken his name is Liam Williams;played well for them in the JWRC but that was one big mistake there at the end of the 2nd match.

I'd have Adriaanse and Marcel van der Merwe as my THs. Adriaanse is only recently back from injury though. I suspect that's what has kept him out traveling though I'd be surprised if he didn't feature on the return games.

No need to be patronising. Yes I watched the tahs. Poitgeter was excellent but I don't see the comparison to Thorn.

Yeah, I think the comparison was more or should be taken as being more play style or rather worth. If we are talking proven class then, yes, no comparison.

 

[TRF_heineken]

LOL, no I was refering to the Welsh fullback. If I'm not mistaken his name is Liam Williams;played well for them in the JWRC but that was one big mistake there at the end of the 2nd match.

I'd have Adriaanse and Marcel van der Merwe as my THs. Adriaanse is only recently back from injury though. I suspect that's what has kept him out traveling though I'd be surprised if he didn't feature on the return games.

Me too... I'd even call up BJ Botha and Mujati if I have to...

Yeah, I think the comparison was more or should be taken as being more play style or rather worth. If we are talking proven class then, yes, no comparison.

Yeah but that is what the article was about. It didn't explicitly say Potgieter = Thorn. Potgieter's abrasive/mongrel play was the X-factor the Waratahs needed, like Brad Thorn's play was for the Crusaders

 

[lynam1104]

I don't think Thorn and Potgieter play similarly at all. Potgieter plays a far wider game than Thorn ever did, lot of running out wide play whereas Thorn was stuck to the breakdown.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I don't think Thorn and Potgieter play similarly at all. Potgieter plays a far wider game than Thorn ever did, lot of running out wide play whereas Thorn was stuck to the breakdown.

Either way, both of them are in-your-face type of players who likes to bash the opposition senseless.

But we're going off topic again...

 

[goodNumber10]

I don't think Thorn and Potgieter play similarly at all. Potgieter plays a far wider game than Thorn ever did, lot of running out wide play whereas Thorn was stuck to the breakdown.

exactly, Potgieter plays like an additional Backrow forward comes around the corner and carries to the 10 & defends around midfield. Thorn like an additional front row player, lots of grunt stays close to the breakdown, carries close, short tackles around the fringes and so on... I don't think Thorn to be particularly abrasive, tough yes, but he's never struck me as a man right up in the oppo's face in the way Bakkies or Etzebeth do.

just opinion though.

 

[Darwin]

why do they HAVE to use Beale at all? Subs don't have to be tactical.

They have an excellent set of backs, who can probably match SA man for man except maybe on the wings. We all see that Australia need a better performance up front so the 6/2 split makes sense in that aspect.

Thanks for the stats links, i've grabbed the app. Good looking out.

That ESPN article is awful, Poitgeter = Brad Thron. LOOOOL!!

Anyway, in my very first post i say the only other 8 I think worth a shot is McCalman - so i'd have no problems with him getting a shot, but they need to do something, they need ball carriers coming around the corner. And i think Higgo's the guy who can do that. Lots of players start out overstepping the line some still do even some of the mighty AB's have on occasion done things that were not of a good nature, it's up to EM to get any loose tempers etc.. in check and get SH understanding that if he does something wrong it effects more than just him - i think he can do that.

anyway it's all moot, the teams selected i guess we'll just have to see.

Again thanks for the links.

No-one is saying Australia HAVE to use Beale from the bench. All I'm suggesting is that having Beale covering 6 spots limits Australia's ability to use him as an impact player (a role that he can be effective in) and could put Australia under a lot of pressure should they have a couple of backline injuries. Personally I don't think the benefit they will get from having 6 forwards on the bench out-weighs the downside of having only 2 backs (especially when one of those backs is a specialist 9).

I don't agree with a lot of what Growden writes, but I tend to think the comparison of Thorn and Potgieter (in terms of their no-nonsense style, aggression, work-rate etc) is pretty apt. Obviously there is a different in quality between the too, and a slight difference in playing styles, but do think the 'hard edge' they bring is invaluable to their sides. I never rated Potgieter before he came to the Waratahs, but I'm a bit of a fan now.

In terms of Higginbotham he isn't just someone who steps over the line occasionally. His attempts to 'intimidate' the opposition with off the ball play is a big part of the way he plays. Off the top of my head he has been carded/cited for headbutting, kneeing someone in the head, a lifting tackle, a late charge, punching..... all within the last 2 years. For me he isn't worth the risk. Obviously McKenzie knows a lot about him from their time together at the Reds - he doesn't seem convinced he is the best option at 8 for Australia, but he obviously rates him pretty highly to have him included in the 23...

 

[Jaguares]

No-one is saying Australia HAVE to use Beale from the bench. All I'm suggesting is that having Beale covering 6 spots limits Australia's ability to use him as an impact player (a role that he can be effective in) and could put Australia under a lot of pressure should they have a couple of backline injuries. Personally I don't think the benefit they will get from having 6 forwards on the bench out-weighs the downside of having only 2 backs (especially when one of those backs is a specialist 9).

Matt Toomua can play at 10 and 12
Kuridrani can play at 13 and as winger
AAC can play at 13, 15 and as winger
Folau can play at winger and 15
Beale can play at 12 and 15
And Nic White could play at first five eight, in the worst case, he has good kicks and could play that role.

If Foley is injured, Link can pick Toomua at 10 and Beale at 12
If Toomua is injured, Beale at 12
If Kuridrani is injured, AAC at 13, Folau at right wing and Beale at 15
If AAC is injured, Folau at 14 and Beale as 15
If Horne is injured, AAC at 11, Folau at 14 and Beale as 15
If two backs are injured, Nic White could be tested at 10.

I think the Link's approach is right this time. SA will try to intimidate with their forwards but Aussies will be prepared. Also with 6 replacements on the bench, Aussie forwards will have the peace of leaving everything in the first half. I see Aussies better for this game, of course, everything can be ruined by the inexperience of Hanson or a series of injuries in their backline.

I remember the first game between the Pumas and Wallabies in Rosario. The Aussies had a lot of injuries in their squad and everyone said that they would be crushed by the Pumas. Robbie Deans picked Sitaleki Timani in the starting XV and he was one of the best players, he won ALL rucks alone. I see a similar Link's approach to this game. People think that SA forwards will crush the Aussies forwards but not think so. Also, the Aussie backline is really looks like the Aussie backline of the spring tour 2013, where they played a fabulous running rugby in Europe. That should be of concern to Saffers.

 

[TheSaffycen]

If the aussie's have 2 injuries they could always put higginbotham in the centres, he certainly has the ball handling skills to play in the backs. I think that Australia ahould play the dual opensides against South Africa as ball they are the worst effected by poachers. Hodgson-McCalman-Hooper would be the back row to go for, have a player like Palu/Hig on the bench for impact.

 

[Jaguares]

If the aussie's have 2 injuries they could always put higginbotham in the centres, he certainly has the ball handling skills to play in the backs. I think that Australia ahould play the dual opensides against South Africa as ball they are the worst effected by poachers. Hodgson-McCalman-Hooper would be the back row to go for, have a player like Palu/Hig on the bench for impact.

I remember when Robbie Deans improvised with Radike Samo and Liam Gill in the backline, then anything is possible

 

[goodNumber10]

No-one is saying Australia HAVE to use Beale from the bench. All I'm suggesting is that having Beale covering 6 spots limits Australia's ability to use him as an impact player (a role that he can be effective in) and could put Australia under a lot of pressure should they have a couple of backline injuries. Personally I don't think the benefit they will get from having 6 forwards on the bench out-weighs the downside of having only 2 backs (especially when one of those backs is a specialist 9).

I get the injury point, and refer you back to my Subs don't have to be tactical point. Additionally White can/could cover wing or probably fullback as well as 9.

I think the benefit of having 6 forwards going at it will far outweigh bringing on Beale to ignite an attack with no/poor ball.

Bar Phipps being in there I think EM has got it right this time round,

I don't agree with a lot of what Growden writes, but I tend to think the comparison of Thorn and Potgieter (in terms of their no-nonsense style, aggression, work-rate etc) is pretty apt. Obviously there is a different in quality between the too, and a slight difference in playing styles, but do think the 'hard edge' they bring is invaluable to their sides. I never rated Potgieter before he came to the Waratahs, but I'm a bit of a fan now.

In terms of Higginbotham he isn't just someone who steps over the line occasionally. His attempts to 'intimidate' the opposition with off the ball play is a big part of the way he plays. Off the top of my head he has been carded/cited for headbutting, kneeing someone in the head, a lifting tackle, a late charge, punching..... all within the last 2 years. For me he isn't worth the risk. Obviously McKenzie knows a lot about him from their time together at the Reds - he doesn't seem convinced he is the best option at 8 for Australia, but he obviously rates him pretty highly to have him included in the 23...

You make it sound like he's rampaging about laying waste to players across the globe. When as far as i can tell it was in fact it has resulted in two bans.

One in 2012 where he got banned for the McCaw incident (Knee & headbutt), and this was his first ban since then... three yellow cards this season were for: Professional foul, late charge, lifting the tackler... so citation in 2012 and two match ban, and then three Yellows = one match ban.

Is it poor discipline, yep but he's also had some good patches as i said he was the form Aussie Number 8 at the start of this campaign, and then fell off as the Rebels faded.

for me he's worth the risk.

Guess we'll see at the weekend if he gets a decent run.

 

[Darwin]

If the aussie's have 2 injuries they could always put higginbotham in the centres, he certainly has the ball handling skills to play in the backs. I think that Australia ahould play the dual opensides against South Africa as ball they are the worst effected by poachers. Hodgson-McCalman-Hooper would be the back row to go for, have a player like Palu/Hig on the bench for impact.

I do think playing dual opensides against South Africa is something Australia should consider. As I mentioned before I think Hodgson is the sort of 'no-nonsense' player that could be very useful against South Africa. The biggest issue would be the lack of Fardy at lineout time, as he is very good in this area (and Hodgson isn't really much of a lineout option).

I get the injury point, and refer you back to my Subs don't have to be tactical point. Additionally White can/could cover wing or probably fullback as well as 9.

I think the benefit of having 6 forwards going at it will far outweigh bringing on Beale to ignite an attack with no/poor ball.

Bar Phipps being in there I think EM has got it right this time round,

Again, I am quite aware subs don't have to be tactical, but it highly beneficial to have the option of making tactical/injury substitutions if required. Having one player covering 6 positions limits this ability. If Australia have to use Nick White on the wing to mark Habana/Hendricks they are in massive trouble!

You make it sound like he's rampaging about laying waste to players across the globe. When as far as i can tell it was in fact it has resulted in two bans.

One in 2012 where he got banned for the McCaw incident (Knee & headbutt), and this was his first ban since then... three yellow cards this season were for: Professional foul, late charge, lifting the tackler... so citation in 2012 and two match ban, and then three Yellows = one match ban.

Is it poor discipline, yep but he's also had some good patches as i said he was the form Aussie Number 8 at the start of this campaign, and then fell off as the Rebels faded.

for me he's worth the risk.

Guess we'll see at the weekend if he gets a decent run.

I'm not sure how I make it sound like that? I simply pointed out the incidents that I can recall him being involved in during the last couple of years. 5/6 incidents in the last 2 years clearly shows he isn't just someone who only "occasionally" steps over the line. Obviously most of these incidents weren't deemed to be overly serious - hence he only received minor suspensions - but that doesn't make him any less of a serial offender. In most matches he gets involved in minor off the ball incidents. Most of these are "****ly" (often holding players down/back) rather than overly malicious - these incidents are the main reason he was the most penalised player in Super Rugby (by some margin). Sometimes this '****ly' play can have more serious consequences too - this obstruction in 2011 ended up breaking Drew Mitchell's ankle. I don't feel the Wallabies, or any side, can afford to start a player like that. For example I'm delighted that Jarrad Hoeata - a player with similar "issues" - has finally left the Highlanders! Obviously you (and others) think it is worth the risk (which is fair enough). Time will tell I suppose.

I suspect Higginbotham will be given a good run this weekend from the bench - perhaps even 30-40 minutes - so he should get a good chance to display his talents.

 

[Jaguares]

 

[goodNumber10]

Again, I am quite aware subs don't have to be tactical, but it highly beneficial to have the option of making tactical/injury substitutions if required. Having one player covering 6 positions limits this ability. If Australia have to use Nick White on the wing to mark Habana/Hendricks they are in massive trouble!

IF! clearly EM thinks the risk worth taking.

I'm not sure how I make it sound like that? I simply pointed out the incidents that I can recall him being involved in during the last couple of years. 5/6 incidents in the last 2 years clearly shows he isn't just someone who only "occasionally" steps over the line.

Well many of those incidents are lumped together, the knee/headbutt/punch on McCaw, so it comes down a bit.

Obviously most of these incidents weren't deemed to be overly serious - hence he only received minor suspensions

You'll have ot point me int he right direction mate. As far as i can tell he's been suspended twice, for the McCaw incident and then this year for three yellows, i might be missing another suspension but those two are all i could find on google.

but that doesn't make him any less of a serial offender. In most matches he gets involved in minor off the ball incidents. Most of these are "****ly" (often holding players down/back) rather than overly malicious - these incidents are the main reason he was the most penalised player in Super Rugby (by some margin). Sometimes this '****ly' play can have more serious consequences too - this obstruction in 2011 ended up breaking Drew Mitchell's ankle.

I think laying the blame for Mitchells injury on SH grossly unfair, yes he blocked him but there was no malicious intent, he was doing what players the world over do including many New Zealanders. The break is just a very sad coincidence, from a fairly innocent (but illegal) incident.

I don't feel the Wallabies, or any side, can afford to start a player like that. For example I'm delighted that Jarrad Hoeata - a player with similar "issues" - has finally left the Highlanders! Obviously you (and others) think it is worth the risk (which is fair enough). Time will tell I suppose.

I suspect Higginbotham will be given a good run this weekend from the bench - perhaps even 30-40 minutes - so he should get a good chance to display his talents.

No, i get what you're saying and you are right. But i just think players have to be given a chance to prove they can get the balance right, he has the skills they need and it's down to EM and SH to prove that he can control himself.

 

[Darwin]

I'm really not sure which way this match is going to go. You would normally back the Boks up front but they have been given a very hard time these last few weeks by Argentina (legally or otherwise). I do think South Africa will look to target Australia's lineout, as Hanson is very inexperienced at this level (and Matfield is still an outstanding lineout exponent). Australia need to get a lot more ball running out of the likes of Kepu, Fardy, and Palu, as Hooper has basically been Australia only effective ball runner in the forwards these last two tests (on top of everything else he is doing).

I expect South Africa will kick the ball a lot (as usual), and it will be interesting to see how Australia responds. They basically refused to kick the ball back in the last All Blacks test and it cost them. Obviously South Africa's kicking game will need to be accurate and they need to chase up in a flat line (you don't want to give Folau space to move), but I do feel Australia may find it difficult if they refuse to employ a kicking game again. I expect Australia's backline defense will have a lot better structure this weekend, as I felt the 'hide Beale' tactic did more harm than good, as players seemed a bit confused of their exact roles.

I haven't seen that much of South Africa's tests this season, but I always feel they are a bit vulnerable close to the breakdown, as some of their big forwards are a bit slow moving laterally (J du Plessis is the biggest culprit here). Both Phipps and White are good (at Super Rugby level) at identifying gaps close to the breakdown and putting ball runners through these gaps with well timed passes, so it is an area I expect Australia to attack.

For me it is a 50:50 match, but I'm going to pick South Africa to win by less than 5. Australia have the home advantage but I feel South Africa's superior kicking game - both around the field and at goal - may be enough for them to clinch the victory.

Well many of those incidents are lumped together, the knee/headbutt/punch on McCaw, so it comes down a bit.

You'll have ot point me int he right direction mate. As far as i can tell he's been suspended twice, for the McCaw incident and then this year for three yellows, i might be missing another suspension but those two are all i could find on google.

I think laying the blame for Mitchells injury on SH grossly unfair, yes he blocked him but there was no malicious intent, he was doing what players the world over do including many New Zealanders. The break is just a very sad coincidence, from a fairly innocent (but illegal) incident.

No, i get what you're saying and you are right. But i just think players have to be given a chance to prove they can get the balance right, he has the skills they need and it's down to EM and SH to prove that he can control himself.

Higginbotham was yellow carded at the start of 2013 for punching Toby Lynn (to be fair this was more in retaliation, rather than something he started). Apart from that I think you have mentioned the other incidents he has been cited / yellow carded for. I think it is clear most of the things he does off he ball are more to ****le his opponents rather than an attempt to actually hurt them, which is why he seldom receives yellow cards / suspensions, but does conceded a huge number of penalties for off the ball play.

In terms of the Mitchell incident there is no doubt in my mind Higginbotham deserves some/all of the blame for it. If he hadn't illegally run blocked him Mitchell certainly wouldn't have broken his ankle! I'm sure Higginbotham didn't plan on hurting Mitchell in any way - he was simply trying to (illegally) stop him chasing the ball, but Mitchell did suffer a serious injury as a result of Higginbotham's illegal play. That is the sort of action we seem to see from Higginbotham most games these days. 99% of the time there will be no serious consequences, but occasionally there can be a serious injury (especially if it happens to an injury prone player like Drew Mitchell!).

I see what you are saying in terms of giving players a chance to prove they can "get the balance right", but I feel that (a) they should prove this at Super Rugby level first, and (b) given Higginbotham is 28 and has been playing professional rugby for over 6 years he should have sorted this out already!

While I agree some players can sort out their discipline issues, other never sort them out, while others get even worse with age. As an example (using NZ players, as they are the players I'm most familiar with) Ma'a Nonu has had issues with shoulder charging his whole career. You would think it would be simple to eliminate it from his game, but you know 2-3 games a year he is still going to shoulder charge someone. Obviously there are examples of players improving their discipline - Dane Coles is a good example. I was worried about including him in the AB's due to his discipline problems, but he seems to have sorted that out in the last two years. Unfortunately I feel Scott Higginbotham falls into the 3rd category (along with Ben Franks for the AB's). He never used to have major discipline issues, but a few years ago he decided he was going to be an 'enforcer' and seemed to stop focusing on playing rugby and more on intimidating the opposition with off the ball play.

It is pretty astonishing how the number of penalties he concedes has increased at Super Rugby level these last couple of seasons (from http://superrugbyfantasy.foxsports.com.au/):

2010: 991 minutes - 10 penalties
2011: 1348 minutes - 10 penalties
2012: 1215 minutes - 12 penalties
2013: 1070 minutes - 20 penalties, 1 yellow card
2014: 1168 minutes - 32 penalties, 3 yellow cards

At this rate he will be conceding 50 penalties a season by 2016

For Australia's sake I do hope he sorts out these discipline issues. When he actually concentrates on playing rugby he brings some pretty unique skills to the table, and potentially could be a very valuable asset to the Wallabies. I think in some ways we are on the same page - you are just more optimistic that Higginbotham can sort out his discipline issues than I am

 

[goodNumber10]

well it's hard to argue with those figures mate.

do you not think the increase in penalties is directly linked to him playing in a beaten team though? Reds go down hill, then the Rebels It speaks of frustration to me rather than ****le.

Need to see how many were for actual foul play.

 

[Imagine]

Boks to take it by 12.

 

[Darwin]

The Wallabies hooking crisis continues. Saia Faingaa has returned back home to give birth (I didn't even know she was pregnant?). Josh Mann-Rea - the 33 year-old 3rd choice Brumbies hooker - comes onto the bench as a replacement. Mann-Rea has a total of 12 Super Rugby caps (3 starts) so matching up against the Boks will be a massive challenge for him!

well it's hard to argue with those figures mate.

do you not think the increase in penalties is directly linked to him playing in a beaten team though? Reds go down hill, then the Rebels It speaks of frustration to me rather than ****le.

Need to see how many were for actual foul play.

Perhaps some of Higginbotham's increased penalty rate could be attributed to frustration in playing for a poor side, however I don't think that is a major factor (obviously this is hard to prove either way). Clearly it is hard to know exactly what proportion of Higginbotham's penalties are for foul play (as they don't really break this down), but having seen quite a lot of him playing for the Rebels over the last few seasons I would suggest it is a significant percentage. I think there has been a noticeable change in Higginbotham's play these last few years. He was obviously told to up his physicality - which he looks to have done - but I feel he has taken it far....

 

[Jer1cho]

Saturday morning rugby. So amped for this game. Really hope the weather doesn't spoil it. I have a feeling the Boks are up for this. Habana the legend has to score

 

[Tony Manx]

Looking forward to this game very much and the Saffers will have to play much, much better than they did against the Pumas for the whole game if they are to defeat the Aussies.......Saffer scrum must get and control the ball or the Aussie backs will enjoy themselves!!

Could be a really close one.......