[2014 TRC] Australia v South Africa in Perth (06/09/2014)

[TRF_heineken]

Bok Team has been announced:

15 Willie le Roux, 14 Cornal Hendricks, 13 Jan Serfontein, 12 Jean de Villiers (captain), 11 Bryan Habana, 10 Morné Steyn, 9 Ruan Pienaar, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Marcell Coetzee, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Victor Matfield, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Jannie du Plessis, 2 Adriaan Strauss, 1 Tendai Mtawarira.

Substitutes: 16 Bismarck du Plessis, 17 Trevor Nyakane, 18 Marcel van der Merwe, 19 Lood de Jager, 20 Warren Whiteley, 21 Francois Hougaard, 22 Pat Lambie, 23 Damian de Allende

glad to see Warren Whiteley getting picked.

A bit weird to see Serfontein in the 13 jumper...

 

[goodNumber10]

While I can certainly see the logic behind a 6/2 split on the bench I still think it is a massive risk. Australia are left with one player (Beale) covering 6 players. Not only would a couple of injuries in the backline would leave Australia in big trouble, but it also restricts Australia's ability to use Beale as an impact sub. If one of the backs picks up a minor injury or is performing poorly the coaches will be loathe to introduce Beale until late in the match as they would have no more cover should there be any other injury....

it's realy not that unusual, and Beale covers plenty of positions, and their is plenty of cover within the on field 15.

I think you are being a bit generous calling him a 'bit of a liability'. For me he is a complete liability! Not only did he lead the whole Super Rugby competition in terms of penalties conceded (with 32, 7 more than next highest player!) and yellow cards (3), he also had a high error rate, an average work-rate, failed to force a single turnover at the breakdown, and spent most of the season lingering out on the wing waiting for the ball. He does have a few good attributes - he is aggressive (though is over aggressive at times), is an excellent lineout option, has good ball skills, and can break tackles running out wide. These positives don't get close to outweighing the negatives in my opinion.

Where are those stats from mate?

He is certainly an abrasive play, but I certainly wouldn't classify him as the 'hard man' that the Wallabies crave. Some players - Brad Thorn for example - are hard men who let their rugby do the talking. Others spend the whole match trying to prove they are the toughest player on the field but often forget to play rugby (Jarrad Hoeata is a good example of this). For me Higginbotham fits firmly in the later category. He is often far more interested in doing ****ly things off the ball than actually playing rugby. There is no doubt he has the skills to be a top class rugby player, but he seems to lack the required temperament. There was actually a period over the later half of the 2013 Super Rugby season when everything started to click for him (he started actually playing rugby...) and I thought he was finally starting to deliver on his potential, but he got injured. Unfortunately this season he seems to have regressed back to his old self....

No one is comparing him to Thorn or anyone else. This is Australia vs South Africa, not NZ vs South Africa, and people are saying he is the best 8 and most abrasive player available to the Wallabies.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Bok Team has been announced:

15 Willie le Roux, 14 Cornal Hendricks, 13 Jan Serfontein, 12 Jean de Villiers (captain), 11 Bryan Habana, 10 Morné Steyn, 9 Ruan Pienaar, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Marcell Coetzee, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Victor Matfield, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Jannie du Plessis, 2 Adriaan Strauss, 1 Tendai Mtawarira.

Substitutes: 16 Bismarck du Plessis, 17 Trevor Nyakane, 18 Marcel van der Merwe, 19 Lood de Jager, 20 Warren Whiteley, 21 Francois Hougaard, 22 Pat Lambie, 23 Damian de Allende

glad to see Warren Whiteley getting picked.

A bit weird to see Serfontein in the 13 jumper...

Sad to see no Pollard and De Allende but they didn't cover themselves in glory. Another in SR then. It'll be interesting to see Serfontein at 13.

Glad to see Whiteley on the bench and Coetzee rewarded for his intensity in the backrow.

Pienaar and Jannie still there hey. I suppose in the case of Jannie we are simply just stuck there ATM with the injuries to our other THs but Pienaar being retained is starting to really annoy me. Hopefully they get pulled as fast as they prove ineffectual which should be pretty early.

As much as it irks me that Matfield is there we simply don't have fit locks and TBF he has been performing better than expected.

Looking forward to this game but I don't have a clue what to expect.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Sad to see no Pollard and De Allende but they didn't cover themselves in glory. Another in SR then. It'll be interesting to see Serfontein at 13.

Glad to see Whiteley on the bench and Coetzee rewarded for his intensity in the backrow.

Pienaar and Jannie still there hey. I suppose in the case of Jannie we are simply just stuck there ATM with the injuries to our other THs but Pienaar being retained is starting to really annoy me. Hopefully they get pulled as fast as they prove ineffectual which should be pretty early.

As much as it irks me that Matfield is there we simply don't have fit locks and TBF he has been performing better than expected.

Looking forward to this game but I don't have a clue what to expect.

Well, maybe this move by HM to not select Pollard and De Allende is a good move, keeping the youngsters humble and showing that they have to raise their game. But then again why not do the same with Pienaar and Jannie.

Matfield back is a huge boost. his leadership and lineout abilities will be vital. and with the team picked by the Wallabies, there will be some kicking being done by both teams.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

it's realy not that unusual, and Beale covers plenty of positions, and their is plenty of cover within the on field 15.

The issue is not how many positions can Beale cover, it's how many positions can Beale cover at the same time

Where are those stats from mate?

You can find them here: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/statscentre.cfm

No one is comparing him to Thorn or anyone else. This is Australia vs South Africa, not NZ vs South Africa, and people are saying he is the best 8 and most abrasive player available to the Wallabies.

The point is that Higginbotham isn't the best 8 available to Australia. He certainly has some good points, but his bad points far outweigh them, meaning that overall he is not that good of a player.

Is he abrasive? Sure.

Is that going to be of use? Maybe.

Is that the be all and end all when it comes to picking a player? Definitely not.

 

[Guilty]

The point is that Higginbotham isn't the best 8 available to Australia. He certainly has some good points, but his bad points far outweigh them, meaning that overall he is not that good of a player.

Is he abrasive? Sure.

Is that going to be of use? Maybe.

Is that the be all and end all when it comes to picking a player? Definitely not.

I think the point pro-Higgenbotham people are making as this Australian forward pack is so short of that abrasive attitude and toughness, we cannot afford to not have a guy like Higgers on the pitch. We already have two passengers in that department and if SA wins, it will because they gain ascendancy in the forward battle. After two pretty poor showing by their high standards, I bet the South African tight five are licking their lips at the prospect of getting stuck into the Wallaby pack. Watch for Simmons and Fardy to get exposed (as usual) come kickoff time.

Would Scott give away some silly penalties? Maybe. Would he play flat out and contribute around the park for 80 minutes ? Absolutely. Personally, I think he is worth the risk and deserves a chance at the starting gig over Fardy week hasn't had a good game since the Lions tour.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I think the point pro-Higgenbotham people are making as that this Australian forward pack is so short of that abrasive attitude and toughness, we cannot afford to not have a guy like Higgers on the pitch. We already have two passengers in that department and if SA wins, it will because they gain ascendancy in the forward battle. After two pretty poor showing by their high standards, I bet the South African tight five are licking their lips at the prospect of getting stuck into the Wallaby pack. Watch for Simmons and Fardy to get exposed (as usual) come kick off time.

Would Scott give away some silly penalties? Maybe. Would he play flat out and contribute around the park for 80 minutes ? Absolutely. Personally, I think he is worth the risk and deserves a chance at the starting gig over Fardy week hasn't had a good game since the Lions tour.

That may be true. But if I look at the setup of both teams, It looks to me like they are preparing for a kick-and-chase type game. To me, this game will be won on who kicks better at goal, and I think that is why Pollard was completely excluded from the 23-man squad of the Boks. Between him, Morne Steyn and Pat Lambie, Pollard has the worst conversion rate. the absence of abrasiveness in the wallaby-pack might play to their advantage...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I don't think I've ever seen Folau kick a ball or miss a ball coming down.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I don't think I've ever seen Folau kick a ball or miss a ball coming down.

Exactly! And Willie has shown what he can do from the back as well this year. That is why I think the Boks would rather be looking at kicking the ball out, and mauling the crap out of the aussies. And the Wallabies will be looking to kick the ball high and let Folau chase it all night long. The absence of Beale at flyhalf makes me think that the Aussies will use the box kick a lot.


On a different note. This will be Bryan Habana's 100th test. Becoming only the 4th South African to reach this milestone.

 

[nzlizard]

On a different note. This will be Bryan Habana's 100th test. Becoming only the 4th South African to reach this milestone.

Wicked didn't realize that, quite befitting for him given his class.

His stats over 100 tests look pretty good as well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_leading_rugby_union_test_try_scorers

 

[goodNumber10]

You can find them here: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/statscentre.cfm

cheers, bookmarked.

The point is that Higginbotham isn't the best 8 available to Australia. He certainly has some good points, but his bad points far outweigh them, meaning that overall he is not that good of a player.

Is he abrasive? Sure.

Is that going to be of use? Maybe.

Is that the be all and end all when it comes to picking a player? Definitely not.

well that's opinion isn't it, will he be better suited to what the Aussies need and have been lacking over the last two games? i think so, and a lot of others seem to agree. Lot of people unhappy with Palu in the last two tests.

 

[lynam1104]

I think the Wallby locks are the biggest issue not the backrow, I can see going with Higs or Fardy at 6, but Simmons and Carter did not preform well enough. They lacked the grunt that was needed and that'll be even more clear against the Boks. Not sure how you'd fix it though, Skelton can't play for 80, Douglas has left, Horwill's form was poor enough last he played which at this point is a long time ago. Seems the Wallabies have finally got a halfway decent pair of props but now their locks seem to be an issue.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

well that's opinion isn't it, will he be better suited to what the Aussies need and have been lacking over the last two games? i think so, and a lot of others seem to agree. Lot of people unhappy with Palu in the last two tests.

Of course it is. All it could ever be is opinion and prediction at this stage. Even after the match it could still come down to opinion unless he had an absolute shocker or blinder of a match so one side of the argument can pretty reasonably be 'proven' wrong in their expectations. This is a forum after all so everyone should feel free to voice their opinions.

 

[Rugga-lad]

Bok Team has been announced:

15 Willie le Roux, 14 Cornal Hendricks, 13 Jan Serfontein, 12 Jean de Villiers (captain), 11 Bryan Habana, 10 Morné Steyn, 9 Ruan Pienaar, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Marcell Coetzee, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Victor Matfield, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Jannie du Plessis, 2 Adriaan Strauss, 1 Tendai Mtawarira.

Substitutes: 16 Bismarck du Plessis, 17 Trevor Nyakane, 18 Marcel van der Merwe, 19 Lood de Jager, 20 Warren Whiteley, 21 Francois Hougaard, 22 Pat Lambie, 23 Damian de Allende

glad to see Warren Whiteley getting picked.

A bit weird to see Serfontein in the 13 jumper...

Happy for Warren Whitely, but jannie du Plessis should not be there. His tackling is off. He might be a good scrummager, but you need to tackle as well. Rather start with Nyakane or Marcel van der Merwe.

Pat Lambie i feel needs to be the permanent Bok no.10. He's got everything.

 

[Rugga-lad]

I think the Boks will win, by 5-10 points.

 

[Darwin]

Bok Team has been announced:15 Willie le Roux, 14 Cornal Hendricks, 13 Jan Serfontein, 12 Jean de Villiers (captain), 11 Bryan Habana, 10 Morné Steyn, 9 Ruan Pienaar, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Marcell Coetzee, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Victor Matfield, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Jannie du Plessis, 2 Adriaan Strauss, 1 Tendai Mtawarira.Substitutes: 16 Bismarck du Plessis, 17 Trevor Nyakane, 18 Marcel van der Merwe, 19 Lood de Jager, 20 Warren Whiteley, 21 Francois Hougaard, 22 Pat Lambie, 23 Damian de Allendeglad to see Warren Whiteley getting picked.A bit weird to see Serfontein in the 13 jumper...

Pretty handy looking side. Like a few others I'm not convinced by the props (mainly du Plessis) and feel it may be time for South Africa to give some of their younger props a shot. Obviously facing the Australian scrum will be less of a challenge than the Argentina scrum though! I really like the look of Serfontein so it is good to see him starting (even if it isn't his preferred position). de Allende looks to have a huge amount of talent, but I feel Serfontein is more ready for test rugby at this stage.I wonder whether we will see Pienaar kick as much with Steyn at 10, or whether he will leave most of the kicking to Steyn?

it's realy not that unusual, and Beale covers plenty of positions, and their is plenty of cover within the on field 15.Where are those stats from mate?No one is comparing him to Thorn or anyone else. This is Australia vs South Africa, not NZ vs South Africa, and people are saying he is the best 8 and most abrasive player available to the Wallabies.

Mr Fish has kindly answered most of the questions for me

Just to add a bit more:Apologies for not providing the links previously - most of the posts I make these days are from my phone which makes adding links a bit more challenging! Most of the stats are from the NZHerald stats centre (that Mr Fish linked), with the penalty stats / pilfers stats from here (you need to sign up a team in the fantasy competition to get access to them though). Another excellent source of Super Rugby stats in the Vodacom stats app (which can be downloaded onto your phone). They all provide slightly different stats (from slightly different sources, so the numbers can vary between the sites), but between these 3 sites I think you can get a pretty good selection of stats....

Since the last test there has been a lot of talk in the Australian media about the lack of an 'enforcer'/'hard man'/'mongrel' in the Australian pack. Indeed there have even been articles specifically bemoaning the lack of a "Brad Thorn" in the team! My point is simply that I don't think Higginbotham is the answer to this problem. I think Australia need players in their pack who will play hard physical rugby and take it to the opposition. Higginbotham doesn't really do this in my opinion as he is far more interested in "****ly" play off the ball. I don't think this makes him the enforcer they crave. It just makes him a bit of a thug. I do think he has the potential to be a good test 8 - as I mentioned I thought he showed some really good signs during the later half of the 2013 Super Rugby season - but personally I wouldn't have him neat the Wallabies side until he starts focusing on playing rugby rather than going out trying to prove he is the toughest man on the pack.....

I certainly agree Palu hasn't exactly been outstanding in the 8 jersey thus far, but he has been pretty accurate. Obviously the Wallabies need more from him in the ball running department, which I think he is capable of. Personally I would be tempted to play McCalman at 8. I thought he had an outstanding season for the Force this year, and he looks to have made big improvements in his ball running (McCalman at 6, with Palu at 8 is another option I quite like). I actually quite like seeing Hodgson on the bench, as though he isn't the biggest player around he is someone who certainly won't take a step back against the South Africans....

As for Beale... As Mr Fish says it is not that Beale can't cover all these positions, it is rather that he can only cover one of these positions at a time, which has a big impact on the way they can use him from the bench.

 

[goodNumber10]

why do they HAVE to use Beale at all? Subs don't have to be tactical.

They have an excellent set of backs, who can probably match SA man for man except maybe on the wings. We all see that Australia need a better performance up front so the 6/2 split makes sense in that aspect.

Thanks for the stats links, i've grabbed the app. Good looking out.

That ESPN article is awful, Poitgeter = Brad Thron. LOOOOL!!

Anyway, in my very first post i say the only other 8 I think worth a shot is McCalman - so i'd have no problems with him getting a shot, but they need to do something, they need ball carriers coming around the corner. And i think Higgo's the guy who can do that. Lots of players start out overstepping the line some still do even some of the mighty AB's have on occasion done things that were not of a good nature, it's up to EM to get any loose tempers etc.. in check and get SH understanding that if he does something wrong it effects more than just him - i think he can do that.

anyway it's all moot, the teams selected i guess we'll just have to see.

Again thanks for the links.

 

[TRF_heineken]

why do they HAVE to use Beale at all? Subs don't have to be tactical.

They have an excellent set of backs, who can probably match SA man for man except maybe on the wings. We all see that Australia need a better performance up front so the 6/2 split makes sense in that aspect.

Thanks for the stats links, i've grabbed the app. Good looking out.

That ESPN article is awful, Poitgeter = Brad Thron. LOOOOL!!

Anyway, in my very first post i say the only other 8 I think worth a shot is McCalman - so i'd have no problems with him getting a shot, but they need to do something, they need ball carriers coming around the corner. And i think Higgo's the guy who can do that. Lots of players start out overstepping the line some still do even some of the mighty AB's have on occasion done things that were not of a good nature, it's up to EM to get any loose tempers etc.. in check and get SH understanding that if he does something wrong it effects more than just him - i think he can do that.

anyway it's all moot, the teams selected i guess we'll just have to see.

Again thanks for the links.

What's so funny about that?? The article said Jacques Potgieter was Brad Thorn-like for the Waratahs. Which he was indeed. Did you watch any of the Waratahs games this season? Potgieter was mostly used at Lock, and he added the mongrel-effect to their pack. And that is what the article was about.

I was actually in awe of Potgieter. When he was at the Bulls, he was a bit nowhere after his first season, and this sort of "resurrection" he went through this season was great to see.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I think post-2015 our centers will be 12)Serfontein, 13)De Allende but certainly De Allende was caught out a bit against Argentina. Probably a bit unfair to have expected the guy to perform given the fact that in SR and CC last year he was played at 12 and 14 which unfortunately does not average out to 13 on a green field of grass as it does on a sheet of paper AND on top of that he was started in a test where 1- he was just back from injury, literally not getting a single minute of non-practice rugby in the 13 jersey between when he got injured in SR and started for the Bokke where 2) the forwards were under all sorts of pressure meaning the backs were as well.

Something we have to work out how to handle effectively, that; how to stay in a game where our forwards are being outplayed so that we don't need Hendricks, Le Roux, Habana or Williams to save our bacon.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I think post-2015 our centers will be 12)Serfontein, 13)De Allende but certainly De Allende was caught out a bit against Argentina. Probably a bit unfair to have expected the guy to perform given the fact that in SR and CC last year he was played at 12 and 14 which unfortunately does not average out to 13 on a green field of grass as it does on a sheet of paper AND on top of that he was started in a test where 1- he was just back from injury, literally not getting a single minute of non-practice rugby in the 13 jersey between when he got injured in SR and started for the Bokke where 2) the forwards were under all sorts of pressure meaning the backs were as well.

Something we have to work out how to handle effectively, that; how to stay in a game where our forwards are being outplayed so that we don't need Hendricks, Le Roux, Habana or Williams to save our bacon.

Williams?? Do you mean Chester??

On the whole prop thing. We have been trying out young props, don't forget that. The problem is that they get injured the whole damn time!!

I see that we have 4 tighthead props playing Currie Cup at the moment, who are springboks. Werner Kruger (Blue Bulls), Pat Cilliers (WP), Lourens Adriaanse (Sharks) and CJ van der Linde (EP Kings). Why don't we get one or two of them in the mix?? even if it's just to scrum. They can't go worse than Jannie, can they?