[2014 Mid-Year Tests] New Zealand vs England (3rd Test)

[TRF_Olyy]

It's just a pity May hasn't shown enough in the 6Ns, the first test and the match v the Crusaders to justify keeping Ashton out. We'll just have to wait until Wade is fit again and firing for there to be a viable alternative in the 14 shirt. Until then, we have to grin and bear it.

As much as I want England to win/play well, I'm kind of hoping (or expecting) Ashton has a shocker so we don't have him around anymore.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

yeah so, in a more tidy way it looks like:

Starting XV (caps):

1. Tony Woodcock (109)
2. Dane Coles (17)
3. Owen Franks (56)
4. Brodie Retallick (26)
5. Samuel Whitelock (53)
6. Jerome Kaino (50)
7. Richie McCaw - captain (126)
8. Kieran Read (61)
9. Aaron Smith (28)
10. Aaron Cruden (31)
11. Julian Savea (21)
12. Ma'a Nonu (90)
13. Malakai Fekitoa (1)
14. Cory Jane (47)
15. Ben Smith (28)

Reserves:

16. Keven Mealamu (112)
17. Wyatt Crockett (26)
18. Charlie Faumuina (19)
19. Patrick Tuipulotu (1)
20. Liam Messam (31)
21. TJ Perenara (2)
22. Beauden Barrett (18)
23. Ryan Crotty (5)

Yep, better than my copy and paste job.

 

[Peat]

It's just a pity May hasn't shown enough in the 6Ns, the first test and the match v the Crusaders to justify keeping Ashton out. We'll just have to wait until Wade is fit again and firing for there to be a viable alternative in the 14 shirt. Until then, we have to grin and bear it.

I would completely, totally, vehemently disagree with that statement on two grounds.

The first is that May's done ok and has improved. He has demonstrated that his strength and pace can genuinely cause danger in test match rugby and he's stood his defensive ground well enough. I would happily keep May in just on considering the player, as he is a player with international test attributes who is visibly gaining from the experience and isn't letting anyone down.

The second is that the ability to see lightning, hear thunder and push your own wheelchair are all it takes to justify keeping Ashton out.

Sadly, you are right that we just have to grin and bear it, as committing acts of terrorism over team selection is just not cricket.

Here's hoping Ashton justifies it.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I would completely, totally, vehemently disagree with that statement on two grounds.

The first is that May's done ok and has improved. He has demonstrated that his strength and pace can genuinely cause danger in test match rugby and he's stood his defensive ground well enough. I would happily keep May in just on considering the player, as he is a player with international test attributes who is visibly gaining from the experience and isn't letting anyone down.

The second is that the ability to see lightning, hear thunder and push your own wheelchair are all it takes to justify keeping Ashton out.

Sadly, you are right that we just have to grin and bear it, as committing acts of terrorism over team selection is just not cricket.

Here's hoping Ashton justifies it.

Yep, you make relevant points which I don't disagree with, but May has just not done one thing and it's pretty damn important and that's score a try yet in an England shirt. But hey ho, I think Savea is going to run riot on Saturday down our right wing, which will confirm to most of us, what we already know.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Meh, scoring tries as a winger is overrated, in that if you're creating tries/space for the other backs/players to exploit and score from then it doesn't give a hoot. May has been directly involved with a few tries in his caps.
It's the reason that Cueto's England career lasted as long as it did, despite everyman and his dog crying over his try scoring record - the amount of breaks he contributed/created was ridiculous.

Give him time, and it'll come. It's not as if he's bombing chances.

 

[McTallshort]

not a bad side, glad to see Lawes return and Parling keep his place and I like the centre partnership but do question Ashtons return he seems to have more lives than a cat.

 

[goodNumber10]

I'm happy with the side, including Ashton being in. I would have selected Foden over him but I'm glad we've gone for a hunter at 14.

Meh, scoring tries as a winger is overrated, in that if you're creating tries/space for the other backs/players to exploit and score from then it doesn't give a hoot.

Ashton does this, and has done this consistently for both England and Sarries - I agree that he's had a poor couple of International seasons but he's been on good form for Sarries this year, and you can't say we'll pick people on current form then exclude others on previous form.

Cipriani wouldn't be near the team if we selected purely on that basis.

In attack he's a good support runner and is quite happy linking as well as poaching.

Defence is a different thing and he's not great, but then none of our wingers are going to have an easy time against Savea - Yarde got absolutely steam rolled by him last week, Tuilagi got turned around a few times iirc.

But do we pick a defensive winger, or someone who will pop up and finish as Ashton did last week?

May has been directly involved with a few tries in his caps.
It's the reason that Cueto's England career lasted as long as it did, despite everyman and his dog crying over his try scoring record - the amount of breaks he contributed/created was ridiculous.

Give him time, and it'll come. It's not as if he's bombing chances.

He's not finishing them either though, and why does May deserve time when others don't? He's had 6 caps to make an impact and even in the 'saders midweek game was completely inconspicuous. Foden in about 6 minutes showed more than May has done in his time int he england shirt.

If anyone is aggrieved it should BF.

The question though really is who is the better left wing? Yarde or May - it's Yarde, hands down.

Ultimately I don't think May has been left out for Ashton i think he's been left out for Yarde.

 

[Patchey]

I think it is really important to consider the circumstances each player has had to deal with this season when considering domestic form. There has been nothing approaching parity between Sarries and Glos.

Ashton has played well on the back of the best forward pack in the premiership, a 10 whose game management and distributional skills have sky rocketed this season and he has been given room to play as he likes. He also scored the majority of his tries in a very easy HCup group.

May has been part of a Glos team that was, sorry Glos fans, absolute gash for most of the season. Terribly weak pack with the exception of three players, an out of sorts playmaker, a back line decimated by injury. I think May played on both wing, at 13 and at fullback this season and was, along with 36 and Rob Cook, pretty much the only consistent performer in the Glos back line.

I think once those two sets of circumstances get taken into account the distance between Ashton and May becomes very narrow indeed. If one then moves on to international form while May has hardly set the world on fire , he hasn't put a foot wrong and has steadily improved. Ashton hadn't done anything of real note except tackle badly since about 2011. He had filled a hole.

 

[goodNumber10]

He was on for 10 minutes last week and scored a try no other winger in the England set up would score.

The points stand he is in form regardless of who he is playing for, should he be punished for playing for a good side?

You can't select on form for some and exclude others on previous form... It has to be a level playing field.

I feel sorry for May as he is a good player but there have been some shocking errors by him in a number of England performances which had it been Ashton would have caused uproar.

Again I repeat Yarde's been picked over him not Ashton... And justifiably so.

So who are our other right wing options to go in over Ashton?

 

[Patchey]

He was on for 10 minutes last week and scored a try no other winger in the England set up would score.

The points stand he is in form regardless of who he is playing for, should he be punished for playing for a good side?

You can't select on form for some and exclude others on previous form... It has to be a level playing field.

I feel sorry for May as he is a good player but there have been some shocking errors by him in a number of England performances which had it been Ashton would have caused uproar.

Again I repeat Yarde's been picked over him not Ashton... And justifiably so.

So who are our other right wing options to go in over Ashton?

You think he's the only winger who would have scored that?!

The point about Sarries v Glos was exactly to try and level the playing field. Of course Ashton shouldn't be punished for playing well in a good team, but equally Sarries are not a good side because of him either so their performances as a team shouldn't be allowed to inflate his standing.

As for May, what massive errors has he made? And why should he not be given a run if starts to improve? Farrell has started at 10 when fit for the last two years and for a lot of that time most people would agree that he had some glaring holes in his game that he needed to fix. If he can get given game time to work on these why not May?

 

[goodNumber10]

You think he's the only winger who would have scored that?!

The point about Sarries v Glos was exactly to try and level the playing field. Of course Ashton shouldn't be punished for playing well in a good team, but equally Sarries are not a good side because of him either so their performances as a team shouldn't be allowed to inflate his standing.

As for May, what massive errors has he made? And why should he not be given a run if starts to improve? Farrell has started at 10 when fit for the last two years and for a lot of that time most people would agree that he had some glaring holes in his game that he needed to fix. If he can get given game time to work on these why not May?

There was no one better to select than Farrell at the time iirc.

Ashton isn't a good player because he plays for Sarries. he's a good player in a good team and in form there is a difference.

May has made a lot of mistakes. Did you watch the first test? He got in Browns way, knocked a ball on (even if it went backwards why didn't he just use both hands), and the list goes on.

And I don't think any other winger would have got themselves in that position.

I think ultimately nine of our winners have nailed down the position under Lancaster, partly to do with youth and partly to do with what England expect.

The team Aston apart is pretty spot on. Bench not so much.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I'm a huge May fan and Ashton hater (since he left saints) but from an England view I think we are making the right calls.

I think will have been told to go away and work on a few things and Ashton deserves his chance again.

None of our wingers have actually been hat good defensively and may has made a lot of errors in attack and defence.

If we had an injury though is expect to see May straight back in until Watson overtakes everyone!

 

[Peat]

Know what? I don't f**king care what Ashton's form has been like for Sarries.

If you consistently stink the place out at international level no amount of domestic form should save you. Ashton has stank the place out more than any other England player by a huge margin. I'm pretty annoyed about him getting a place back this quickly on general principle to be honest.

Ashton in Lancaster's England is a failure. At no point has he looked better than shirt filler. Most of the time he's been anonymous. Why the f**k are we continuing with a proven failure? He's had two years, two years that he has been crap for. Why are we persevering with him? Why are we ignoring his complete inability to have a positive impact in the role Lancaster assigns to him?

If, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, we're about to see wingers play a more prominent attacking role in the centre of the park, then fine. He's still a good player who runs fantastic supporting lines. But I'm going to guess we're not going to. If we didn't do it last week to bring Manu Tuilagi into the game, then why are we expecting the change now? The likelihood is that we will continue to see wingers used mainly for their chase, their one on one, and receiving the ball in crowded areas cos we can't fix and give. The same things that Ashton has proven mediocre to woeful at for the last two f**king years.

I'm ****** about this.

And, what's more - no, May has not been perfect, but he's improving and he brings a positive impact. He makes ground, he sets up attacking positions. So what he hasn't scored tries? England wingers don't score tries because we don't create attacking opportunities for them. What an England winger needs to do is make one on one tackles, be good under the high ball and be able to make something out of crowded situations. May does that better than Ashton. And by the by - I don't think Mike Brown ever called for May to leave it, plenty of covering players knock the ball back in that situation, and no one shone for England in that second half. If we are to be that picky on flaws, then Chris Ashton should have been marched to Tyburn and there hung by the neck until dead some time last year.

If they'd dropped May for Foden, fine. May hasn't made an incontrovertible case for selection.

But Ashton? Ashton should not be playing.

 

[goodNumber10]

Know what? I don't f**king care what Ashton's form has been like for Sarries.

If you consistently stink the place out at international level no amount of domestic form should save you. Ashton has stank the place out more than any other England player by a huge margin. I'm pretty annoyed about him getting a place back this quickly on general principle to be honest.

Ashton in Lancaster's England is a failure. At no point has he looked better than shirt filler. Most of the time he's been anonymous. Why the f**k are we continuing with a proven failure? He's had two years, two years that he has been crap for. Why are we persevering with him? Why are we ignoring his complete inability to have a positive impact in the role Lancaster assigns to him?

If, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, we're about to see wingers play a more prominent attacking role in the centre of the park, then fine. He's still a good player who runs fantastic supporting lines. But I'm going to guess we're not going to. If we didn't do it last week to bring Manu Tuilagi into the game, then why are we expecting the change now? The likelihood is that we will continue to see wingers used mainly for their chase, their one on one, and receiving the ball in crowded areas cos we can't fix and give. The same things that Ashton has proven mediocre to woeful at for the last two f**king years.

I'm ****** about this.

And, what's more - no, May has not been perfect, but he's improving and he brings a positive impact. He makes ground, he sets up attacking positions. So what he hasn't scored tries? England wingers don't score tries because we don't create attacking opportunities for them. What an England winger needs to do is make one on one tackles, be good under the high ball and be able to make something out of crowded situations. May does that better than Ashton. And by the by - I don't think Mike Brown ever called for May to leave it, plenty of covering players knock the ball back in that situation, and no one shone for England in that second half. If we are to be that picky on flaws, then Chris Ashton should have been marched to Tyburn and there hung by the neck until dead some time last year.

If they'd dropped May for Foden, fine. May hasn't made an incontrovertible case for selection.

But Ashton? Ashton should not be playing.

Lol! sit on the fence mate...

 

[Patchey]

There was no one better to select than Farrell at the time iirc.

Ashton isn't a good player because he plays for Sarries. he's a good player in a good team and in form there is a difference.

May has made a lot of mistakes. Did you watch the first test? He got in Browns way, knocked a ball on (even if it went backwards why didn't he just use both hands), and the list goes on.

And I don't think any other winger would have got themselves in that position.

I think ultimately nine of our winners have nailed down the position under Lancaster, partly to do with youth and partly to do with what England expect.

The team Aston apart is pretty spot on. Bench not so much.

Well I'd say Flood was a better option at 10 for the first season and a half of Farrell's England career. But obviously there was no where near the same forth of options at ten as we now have on the wing. For about two seasons Farrell have us next to nothing in attack compared to the energy Flood brought, and yet he was retained as the starting ten and did radially improve.

I was at work in the middle of nowhere so missed the first test and have yet to see more than a few sets of highlights. I'll happily take you word that May made errors but they sounds like errors more from a lack of communication or confidence. Brown has hardly been his normal, machine like self under reassure this series but I don't think it would be fair to have dropped him after the first test, so I think the same should have applied for May.

I agree with your earlier point about Foden being unlucky. He should be 23 this week for sure, not Burrell.

 

[Peat]

Lol! sit on the fence mate...

I would like to make a more conclusive argument, but academic neutrality means I cannot, and must be fair and even handed in my current Master's Dissertation of 'Why Chris Ashton is more evil than Stalin + Ed Gein combined' ^_^

 

[Patchey]

I wish my Masters had been on that...

Ashton is one of *those* players we can never all agree on isn't he? He's like Steffon Armitage.

I sometimes think that, like Steffon, he should go play somewhere where we can't select him. Or maybe be give a bottle of scotch and a revolver and be asked to do the honourable thing to stop TRFs England contingent bringing shame upon itself by being able to talk about nothing but his selection.

Then I wake up, realise it was all a dream and have a coffee. Then the world looks fine again.

 

[Darwin]

I have to say I'm quite excited to see Fekitoa starting this week. He is a completely different player to Smith, and I have some doubts about his combination with Nonu (especially on defense), but he is one of the most dangerous ball runners in NZ rugby. He could add a different dimension to the ABs attack, and though he is nowhere near the defender Conrad Smith is he is an incredibly physical defender - something we haven't really had in the backs since Kahui's departure (I suppose you could consider Nonu's late shoulder charges as physical, but I'm thinking of physicality that doesn't result in a yellow card....). He has scored some stunning solo tries this year for the Highlanders (and set-up a fair share of tries too) - hopefully we will see some more of that this weekend...

 

[Jack Reacher]

Its a massive credit to Conrad that he is now probably the most irreplaceable AB - the first 3-4 years of his career Henry just wouldn't pick him because he didn't have the 'X factor'. Now he must be first on the team sheet and will be missed this week. Hopefully Nonu will play the veteran role he should but I think off the field he is still very immature which wont help the young lads.
Its with a heavy heart that I say I want this winning streak to end soon, the team definitely needs a shake up before WC15 and there are a few players who could be shown up in a losing team.

 

[Gena_ZA]

Do they spend most of the week teaching him how to hold players back or are they teaching him proper defensive lines