[2014 Mid-Year Tests] England

[fattyforward]

Wilson got 6 because his scrummaging really gave us a great platform, maybe he should've been 5.

Maybe I'm getting old (even though I'm new to this online stuff) but scrummaging is sort of the point. Who better than Wilson?

Rule no 1.: Don't get pinged - Wilson doesn't
Rule No. 2: Set a steady platform - Wilson always does
Rule No. 3: Try to stop opposition doing Rule 1&2 - Wilson can

Anything else is a bonus.

Who would have done better - Cole (even when fit) seems to give away far to many penalties and that far outweighs his loose play. Props win set plays esp. scrums - that's the point of them. Look at Adam Jones - that's all he can do, but we'd have loved to have him for the last 10 years.

It's union not league!

 

[Big Ewis]

I agree. Scrummaging is the no.1 quality for a TH prop. And Dan Cole hasn't shone internationally there.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Wilson had a bad day at the office in the loose - no doubt.

But let's not forget that it's usually a strength.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Maybe I'm getting old (even though I'm new to this online stuff) but scrummaging is sort of the point. Who better than Wilson?

Rule no 1.: Don't get pinged - Wilson doesn't
Rule No. 2: Set a steady platform - Wilson always does
Rule No. 3: Try to stop opposition doing Rule 1&2 - Wilson can

I agree completely, but he did knock on the ball a couple of times and was always hit behind the advantage line. Marler and Webber where both on top in the scrum but did great in the loose. If i had to choose between a fully fit Cole and a fully fit Wilson i always pick Wilson, it's why i ain't happy when Vunipola is at loosehead because of his poor scrummaging, give me a Corbisiero. Scrummaging is always the primary asset for a prop but look at Cian Healy, the Beast, Zirakashvili they all bring more too the game.

ALSO TO ADD england should try Kyle Sinkler next test, great ability and potential

 

[Peat]

I don't care too much if a prop isn't outstanding in the loose, but when he's actively awful and a huge liability, his position is not a pass from criticism. As a point of philosophy, the main duty of a rugby player at any level and in any position is Don't fµck up. Wilson fµcked up royally. He did some good work in the scrum, but he had an absolute stinker in the loose. Not how he normally rolls, but he did that night.

As for the other points

- What May mistake? Mind might have gone here.
- I'd disagree that Eastmond was miles better, but he was very good... ESPN says they made 2 linebreaks each. I know NZ weren't great, but how often do you see England centre partnerships waltz through the AB defensive line like that?

Much as I admire our other options, I'd be very loath to split them up after that. Both 7.5s imo.

 

[Big Ewis]

hey Peat.....Fùck you, man !!

And yes, David Wilson looked like a fat 30 something guy who used to work in some factory somewhere in Birmingham who was picked solely because he can push in a scrum.

 

[j'nuh]

I don't care too much if a prop isn't outstanding in the loose, but when he's actively awful and a huge liability, his position is not a pass from criticism. As a point of philosophy, the main duty of a rugby player at any level and in any position is Don't fµck up. Wilson fµcked up royally. He did some good work in the scrum, but he had an absolute stinker in the loose. Not how he normally rolls, but he did that night.

As for the other points

- What May mistake? Mind might have gone here.
- I'd disagree that Eastmond was miles better, but he was very good... ESPN says they made 2 linebreaks each. I know NZ weren't great, but how often do you see England centre partnerships waltz through the AB defensive line like that?

Much as I admire our other options, I'd be very loath to split them up after that. Both 7.5s imo.

At one point, May took the ball deep in the 22 and had just enough time to get a kick away, but held on too long, tried to go around an AB, and got tackled 5m out. England scrambled to get it out in the end, but it would have been a lot easier had May gotten it away initially.

Other than that, not sure what he is referring to as far as blowing a try goes. I don't recall that...

Also, entirely agree with you about props and such. If a prop wins you 3 penalties in the scrum and concedes 4 in the loose, then you wouldn't really want him in your team. Scrummaging props are allowed to be relatively anonymous in the loose, but they must not be a liability. Wilson was unfortunately. That said, it was a one-off. He's normally decent in the loose.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Anyone who doesn't have Sky Sports, the full game is on Youtube for a limited time before they realise and take it down. Anyway, good to watch the game again. So few turnovers in this game, no wonder there were so few opportunities to score tries from open play.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I feel bad for Wilson... people constantly call him fat but he's actually pretty lean, particularly for a prop!

Plenty of fatter players in the squad who aren't 122kg.

 

[goodNumber10]

from your private collection Rats?

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

i seen a centre like that called basteraud

 

[ratsapprentice]

from your private collection Rats?

He sexted me.

 

[TheSaffycen]

As for the other points

- What May mistake? Mind might have gone here.

When he was caught about 5 out trying to step Kaino instead of putting boot too ball. He also did a very erratic kick in the second half but i think he did the smart thing just to get it away from the line.

England scrambled to get it out in the end, but it would have been a lot easier had May gotten it away initially.

Other than that, not sure what he is referring to as far as blowing a try goes. I don't recall that...

I was talking about the mistake that it should have resulted in a New Zealand try, he didn't really get a chance to score. Though if you watch again the ball went to him in the first half and the whistle had been blown but Dagg and May didn't know and he blitz through him and would've scored; and i thought at the time how well he had done. Also England didn't scramble it away, robshaw got taken out by Coles and we got a penalty, otherwise they had 4 guys against Robshaw come ruck time.

 

[ratsapprentice]

LCD's flown back to England because of a knee injury - which sucks because I would have liked to see him play in the Crusaders game.

Goode isn't training due to a slight injury so isn't in contention.

 

[Darwin]

LCD's flown back to England because of a knee injury - which sucks because I would have liked to see him play in the Crusaders game.

Goode isn't training due to a slight injury so isn't in contention.

That is Goode news for England

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I still haven't seen what is so special in Twelvetrees against the top 3 SH teams his stats so far against Aus and NZ weren't exactly top notch for a 12.

Twelevetrees against NZ (Won) @ home in 2013 made 4 passes, 13 Runs for 55 Meters 1 offload
Twelevetrees against Aus (Won) @ home in 2013 made 1 pass, 3 runs for 11 Meters 0 offloads

He hasn't played SA but there not exactly a step down in Defence. Don't get me wrong he is good in the 6N.

Would like to see Burrell get a shot at 12 and Manu @ 13.

Playing Manu on the wing against savea (potentially) or Smith is unfair to him.

 

[TheSaffycen]

I still haven't seen what is so special in Twelvetrees against the top 3 SH teams his stats so far against Aus and NZ weren't exactly top notch for a 12.

I completely agree, he hasn't shown anything that would constiute him playing over Eastmond. He always falls over as well which ****** me right off.

 

[Big Ewis]

That is Goode news for England

 

[Peat]

When he was caught about 5 out trying to step Kaino instead of putting boot too ball. He also did a very erratic kick in the second half but i think he did the smart thing just to get it away from the line.

Honestly can't recall the Kaino incident, might have been busy posting instead :lol: Fair enough though, will take your word for it.

 

[j'nuh]

Just a few observations about England's wing play. I've noticed that people are getting a little frustrated with the English wingers for a lack of creating anything. There is a very good reason that the English wingers do not seem to be creating anything though. England employ their wingers somewhat differently to other nations. Whereas a lot of other nations allow their wingers to roam (e.g. Wales, where North comes in-field regularly, and before him, Shane would pop up absolutely all over the place), England chain their wingers to the wing. It's not just that the wingers simply seem not to be allowed to stray into the attacking line, but most of the time they are found absolutely hugging the wing. On the rare occasion that a winger finds themselves in-field in the England set-up, you quickly notice them rush back to get back to the wing. This creates two issues for the wingers in an attacking sense: one, they are always on the far end of the backline, so the ball nearly always breaks down before it reaches them, and two, on the rare occasion that the ball does reach them, they receive it so close to the touchline that they have absolutely no room to work in.

As for what the winger's role is in an attacking position, I suspect that it's in order to stretch the opposition backline as far as it will go, in order to give room to the primary strike runners: the 12, 13 and 15. Particularly Tuilagi/Burrell. This is why we have started to see that the 13 and 15 gets a larger percentage of tries than the wingers. They simply carry at the opposition more often. Also, the main attacking functions of a wing, outside of an attacking position, is to contest high ball and to attack in broken field. Otherwise, I think that the winger is seen primarily as a defensive player in Lancaster's England.

We could keep changing our wingers until one proves something in attack, but I think it's futile. The role of a winger for England just does not lend itself to players that are brilliant in attack. We have two of the best attacking wingers in the country in May and Yard - both have shown their ability for their clubs. It's not for a lack of ability in attack that the wingers are not scoring tries/threatening the opposition, it's for a lack of opportunity.

Some evidence:

Track May in this move:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu0ZjPUdKdc#t=5m11s

As England track in-field, see how far out Yarde is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu0ZjPUdKdc#t=21m42s

A minute or so later, see how thin across the field the attacking line is. Yarde still out as wide as you can be:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu0ZjPUdKdc#t=22m20s

England have broken. There is more than enough room for May to come a little in-field. Stays right out on the wing. He receives the ball so far out that he has no room to operate in and is forced to run it in-field:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu0ZjPUdKdc#t=44m45s

Again, May as wide as you can get:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu0ZjPUdKdc#t=59m49s

57 mins into the game, and I believe this is the first time that May gets the ball without being tied to the touchline. (It only happens because New Zealand had just kicked the ball back to England, allowing May to come a little in-field whilst there was a bit of a broken field.) Makes a great run:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu0ZjPUdKdc#t=1h11m52s

Shortly after, second time in the game that May gets the ball in a bit of space. The only reason for this is that it comes from set piece ball, and he tracks in behind some dummy runners. Makes another fantastic run and a well-weighted kick. He shows that he has got the ability, but is somewhat restricted in showing it for England:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu0ZjPUdKdc#t=1h19m30s

By contrast, a few All Blacks clips:

Contrast to Ben Smith being in-field (3rd from right):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu0ZjPUdKdc#t=13m03s

NZ are a little more fluid in who fills in where. Nonu acting as winger:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu0ZjPUdKdc#t=54m34s

Fekitoa joining the end of the backline as the winger, Jane, is inside:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu0ZjPUdKdc#t=1h23m05s

Honestly can't recall the Kaino incident, might have been busy posting instead :lol: Fair enough though, will take your word for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu0ZjPUdKdc#52m50s