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[2014 Mid-Year Tests] England

Should bring Wilko back, even though he retired from international 2011. He could make a come back, like some older players, Victor Matfield, Jerome Kaino, George Smith (which ended dearly in the Lions Tour 2013)
 
England additions, no surprises at all, really:

Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Alex Waller (Northampton Saints)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
 
Gotta agree with the majority here. Remember watching that Aus game and thinking that he's definitely not what he's hyped up to be. Thought he tackled well, but did bugger all otherwise.
 
Jesus GN10, have you got a bet on him being recalled or something?! You're his new biggest fan! :p

Obviously the videos I posted were me showing him at his worse, I wasn't seriously suggesting that two videos were going to persuade you that he was, in fact, a bit rubbish. As for the ones you put up, the first is a nice hit, the second is nothing special IMO, he essentially jumps of Folau's back as Farrell is in the process of tackling him (just) anyway. The third and fourth clips are both half decent lines but not exactly incredible finishes, I'd expect most self respecting Premiership 13s to score them. The fifth clip is a good offload, but as we've established for every one of those he does another three or four will fail (see the 'falling over' video). The final clip is a nice break.

If I'm honest I can't really see why these video show he should be playing international rugby. All I can see if one good hit and a high level of work rate from the Aus game and then a number of clips showing him being half decent with occasional moments of something more in a Premiership setting. I don't think anyone is denying that he is/was a solid centre at club level and that is was worth getting him involve with England to see if he could move it up a gear. I don't see any evidence of him having stepped up during the Autumn and as such I wouldn't want to see him recalled.

As an aside, the U20s started another Tompkins, young Nick, at 13 today. So maybe in year or two we'll be having this conversation about a different member of the clan!


TRF_Olyy said:
England additions, no surprises at all, really:

Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Alex Waller (Northampton Saints)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Click to expand...

Ugh. Yeah no surprises but very deflating. Its good to see Watson has recovered (hopefully) and that Sinckler has been noticed, nice to see Waller get the nod after a good season as well. However Ashton, Goode, Myler, Wigglesworth? Really? I guess we were expecting most of these guys to be named but even so. It just strikes me as negative to select players essentially for the sake on continuinty. Assuming the coaching team watched the Barbarians game and have been getting feedback from training over the last week, by what metric do Goode and Ashton get selected over Daly and Sharples? Is Wigglesworth really a better option than Robson or Simpson considering he is almost certainly going to be a mid-week player? Why no take a punt of Slade for the mid-week squad instead of Myler? We now also have way too many hookers in the squad.

I guess i'd just like to see us take a risk on players who have a bit of flare and a bright future rather than guys who look nothing more than 'solid' in an international jersey. I'm sort of assuming that the squad we have now is going to be a fair indication of the World Cup squad too.
 
TRF_Olyy said:
England additions, no surprises at all, really:

Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Alex Waller (Northampton Saints)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Click to expand...

Are there any rugby players left in England? England could start a new starting XV every test and everyone still wouldn't get a start!
 
Patchey said:
Jesus GN10, have you got a bet on him being recalled or something?! You're his new biggest fan! :p
Click to expand...

second biggets fan, Andy Farrell is his biggest. :)

Patchey said:
Jesus GN10, Obviously the videos I posted were me showing him at his worse, I wasn't seriously suggesting that two videos were going to persuade you that he was, in fact, a bit rubbish. As for the ones you put up, the first is a nice hit, the second is nothing special IMO, he essentially jumps of Folau's back as Farrell is in the process of tackling him (just) anyway. The third and fourth clips are both half decent lines but not exactly incredible finishes, I'd expect most self respecting Premiership 13s to score them. The fifth clip is a good offload, but as we've established for every one of those he does another three or four will fail (see the 'falling over' video). The final clip is a nice break.

If I'm honest I can't really see why these video show he should be playing international rugby. All I can see if one good hit and a high level of work rate from the Aus game and then a number of clips showing him being half decent with occasional moments of something more in a Premiership setting. I don't think anyone is denying that he is/was a solid centre at club level and that is was worth getting him involve with England to see if he could move it up a gear. I don't see any evidence of him having stepped up during the Autumn and as such I wouldn't want to see him recalled.
Click to expand...

yeah, sorry i think my reasoning has come accross a bit wrong - i'm not saying he should be picked or anything, i'm just saying he's not anywhere near as bad as people make out, and is naturally third in line imho - he's someway behind Tuilagi and Burrell though.

Patchey said:
Jesus GN10,
Ugh. Yeah no surprises but very deflating. Its good to see Watson has recovered (hopefully) and that Sinckler has been noticed, nice to see Waller get the nod after a good season as well. However Ashton, Goode, Myler, Wigglesworth? Really? I guess we were expecting most of these guys to be named but even so. It just strikes me as negative to select players essentially for the sake on continuinty. Assuming the coaching team watched the Barbarians game and have been getting feedback from training over the last week, by what metric do Goode and Ashton get selected over Daly and Sharples? Is Wigglesworth really a better option than Robson or Simpson considering he is almost certainly going to be a mid-week player? Why no take a punt of Slade for the mid-week squad instead of Myler? We now also have way too many hookers in the squad.

I guess i'd just like to see us take a risk on players who have a bit of flare and a bright future rather than guys who look nothing more than 'solid' in an international jersey. I'm sort of assuming that the squad we have now is going to be a fair indication of the World Cup squad too.
Click to expand...

I think it's just a case of getting people up to speed in a week, i don't think it comes down to much more than that.
 
Well i think you're generous putting him in 3rd place but whatever! :)


Yeah, Lancaster loves to pick for continuity which is great in principal. However, if the Saxons/England XV are running the same systems as the full England team (they should be) and as guys flying out today will effectively have two weeks until they play I don't really see why people can't be brought up to speed. I think you're right on the reasoning, but I don't agree with it.
 
Darwin said:
Are there any rugby players left in England? England could start a new starting XV every test and everyone still wouldn't get a start!
Click to expand...
Just one:
6kjxUro.jpg


:(
 
TRF_Olyy said:
Just one:
6kjxUro.jpg


:(
Click to expand...

Owch. Right in the feels.


Just done some 'maths', currently in NZ or on the plane to NZ are:



Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Alex Waller (Northampton Saints)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (London Wasps)
Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby)
Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Joe Gray (Harlequins)
Dave Ward (Harlequins)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)
James Haskell (London Wasps)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Marland Yarde (London Irish)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Chris Pennell (Worcester Warriors)

A total of 5 full-backs, 3 wingers, 6 centres, 4 fly-halves, 4 scum-halves, 7 back rows, 5 locks, 5 hookers and 8 props. 46 players in all.





 
A total of 5 full-backs, 3 wingers,
Click to expand...
THis is Lancaster soo don't you mean 8 wingers ;)

It just strikes me as negative to select players essentially for the sake on continuinty. Assuming the coaching team watched the Barbarians game and have been getting feedback from training over the last week, by what metric do Goode and Ashton get selected over Daly and Sharples? Is Wigglesworth really a better option than Robson or Simpson considering he is almost certainly going to be a mid-week player? Why no take a punt of Slade for the mid-week squad instead of Myler?
Click to expand...
Goode is a pointless player to be bringing, he ony worked well in the second reciver role and now we have a 12 that can do it we really on the full back to bring back theball and beat players, that he can't do. Sharples doesn't seem to be in favour which is unfair given the amount of chances other players get. Ashton was always going to be selected for 2 reasons, he knows the camp and the style of play- Second he has been scoring tries, a **** load. If it wasn't ashton then everyone would be calling for him being selected, he scored 11 tries in the HCup (record) 8 more in the prem but people don't like him because it's Ashton. People come up with the same argument that everyone has to make the chance for him and that anyone can score his tries, but others don't score the same amount as him. There is a reason that he always seem to pop up in the right place because he is a good winger, whatever people say about his skill set and that he can't do this or that and his defending is poor (which it is) he scores tries. Why pick a winger on his tackle count ? No one has a problem with Daly being in the squad ? And at full back you have to be a good tackler, but everyone raves about his attacking potential and that's why we want him. I'm an Ashton fan as you can probably guess :p. Wigglesworth is also a ****ty call as Dickson can play a kicking game so might as well have picked Simpson.
 
TheSaffycen said:
THis is Lancaster soo don't you mean 8 wingers ;)


Goode is a pointless player to be bringing, he ony worked well in the second reciver role and now we have a 12 that can do it we really on the full back to bring back theball and beat players, that he can't do. Sharples doesn't seem to be in favour which is unfair given the amount of chances other players get. Ashton was always going to be selected for 2 reasons, he knows the camp and the style of play- Second he has been scoring tries, a **** load. If it wasn't ashton then everyone would be calling for him being selected, he scored 11 tries in the HCup (record) 8 more in the prem but people don't like him because it's Ashton. People come up with the same argument that everyone has to make the chance for him and that anyone can score his tries, but others don't score the same amount as him. There is a reason that he always seem to pop up in the right place because he is a good winger, whatever people say about his skill set and that he can't do this or that and his defending is poor (which it is) he scores tries. Why pick a winger on his tackle count ? No one has a problem with Daly being in the squad ? And at full back you have to be a good tackler, but everyone raves about his attacking potential and that's why we want him. I'm an Ashton fan as you can probably guess :p. Wigglesworth is also a ****ty call as Dickson can play a kicking game so might as well have picked Simpson.
Click to expand...

i'm with you on ashton, i think he's getting back on form.

they have to let him go hunting though, can't shackle him to the touchline.
 
People keep going on about how many tries Ashton's been scoring, but Sarries had Connacht and Zebre in their HEC group (he scored 6 of his HEC tries against those two) and then his try scoring in the premiership, considering how dominant Sarries have been, isn't that impressive - Less tries than Goneva, Strettle, and May, same amount as Cueto, Sam Smith and Marland Yarde.

Obviously he's been finishing well, but people are making far more of it than should be made.
 
I thought ashtons dtackling lately has been top notch imo. I suppose they reckon his partnership with Farrell is improving enough.

Would of preferred Roko but honestly he didn't impress me against the baabaas, and out of all the potential wingers playing this weekend imo he performed overall the best.

I personally would have picked Roko or Daly but I understand the logic.
 
I agree with the idea that Goode is a pointless player to bring as we no have a kicking, distributing 12 and will have another fly-half on the bench as well. Goode can only really be considered as a full-back now and he has to be behind Brown and Foden right? If thats the case then bring Daly in his place so he gets time in the squad and the coaches can work with him. Similarly with Wigglesworth. He isn't going to play in the tests so why no bring Simpson or Robson so they can work with the coaches, get to know the system and play at least game in the mid-week?

I've warmed a little to Myler since the initial announcement, but I think think that again, he is unlikely to play in the test. We've got Farrell and Cips ahead of him (IMO), Twelvetrees can cover 10 and then there is Burns. Why not bring Slade instead to be involved in the squad and play the mid-week. It more of a risk but then I'd rather take a risk on a really promising player rather than a boring one.

Now, Ashton...

I think the defensive comparison between Ashton and Daly is unfair, as they're playing in different positions and have different weaknesses. Wingers actually have more tackling to do that fullbacks because a lot of the time when a 15 is involve in the defense its often after a line break an they're on the wrong end of a 2-on-1 anyway. Ashton just cannot tackle, plain and simple. I think I've seen him make about three clean tackles all season. He goes way too high and is all clawing arms rather than dropping his shoulders into the attackers midriff and driving. Daly on the other hand can tackle, one on one, but clearly has his issues with positioning. He's similar to Burrell, who we were all worried about when he first came into the England set up because he had been caught out of position defensively a fair bit playing for Saints. With him some time spent in the England camp prior to making his debut, with Farrell coaching him, seems to have ironed that out. I see no reason why Daly can't do the same. Ashton on the other hand has be publicly told to work on his defense and barely improved.

Obviously he's been in much better form this season (and Sharples is out of favour anyway so he was always going to go once Nowell fell over) and has beaten the HCup scoring record etc etc. However I still maintain that any half decent winger would have scored the tries he has for Sarries this year. He has prospered off the back of a very strong team performance. Thats fine, I don't have a problem with that except that England will not generate the kind of dominance against serious international opposition that Sarries have against the majority of teams they have played. Ashton will not, however much freedom he is given to roam, reproduce the form he has shown in the Premiership and HCup.

IMO I think one of two things will happen if he starts either of the latter tests:

1. England will produce two incredible performances, harking back to the hallowed years of the early 2000s. With generous front foot ball and massive dominance in the set piece Ashton will be given so much room and time on the ball that he cannot help but score tries for fun and make me look like a fool in the process.

2. NZ will target him with high balls and their loose forwards, Julian Savea will run over him a la Lomu v Catt and the TRF match thread will be dominated by Kiwis asking, with real confusion, why the hell we picked him.
 
He broke the Heineken cup record in a group with Connacht and Zebre in it.
Can anyone even name the previous record holder...?

How many tries did he score when a quality opposition team really turned up to play?
By my count he got 3 - one against Tolouse and two against Ulster (without their FB).

I'm certainly not suggesting his form hasn't improved this year, but is he good enough for international rugby? Not in my opinion.
 

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