[2014 Mid-Year Tests] England

[TRF_Olyy]

Interesting.

Will make a full comment later, when I'm not on my phone but it's a huge shame to see both Brookes and Thomas going out for the first test.
Neither can scrummage worth sh*t.

 

[ratsapprentice]

So from that, this is the probable team for the first test (definites/almost definites in bold):

1. Joe Marler
2. Rob Webber
3. Davey Wilson
4. Joe Launchbury
5. Dave Attwood
6. James Haskell
7. Chris Robshaw
8. Ben Morgan
9. Danny Care
10. Freddie Burns
11. Jonny May
12. Kyle Eastmond (36 if fit)
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Marland Yarde
15. Mike Brown

16. Dave Ward/LCD
17. Matt Mullan
18. Henry Thomas
19. Geoff Parling
20. Matt Kvesic
21. Ben Youngs
22. Danny Cipriani
23. Chris Pennell

Bearing this article in mind: http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/story/224451.html

I'd expect Joe Gray is there as a solid thrower in case everyone else goes to **** - I highly doubt (hope) that he wont play at all, because he is painfully mediocre in open play.
Three fantastic hookers otherwise. Fingers crossed the lineout clicks - but all are at least as good in that area as Youngs is.
The inclusion of four Hookers suggests to me that Lancaster is doubtful of Hartley's fitness.

TH props beyond Wilson are a little worrying - Brookes is a monster carrier and Thomas will make a lot of carries, but neither are much cop in the scrum, with Thomas potentially disastrous.
I understand there are reasons why you'd leave Sinckler behind - but on a purely rugby basis he is miles ahead of Brookes and Thomas - and also I'd suggest the reasons that apply to Kyle apply to Thomas too.
If the suggestion that 12 specialist front-rowers will be brought along is true then one of Sinckler or Collier may travel after the Barbarians game.

The inclusion of only 2 LH's means that Waller and Vunipola will be added. Obviously Vunipola is being talked about as doubtful - if he is ruled out I'd expect Catt to go instead.

Lawes will come in as the extra lock.

Robshaw and Morgan are nailed on. I think Haskell will probably start, although he might be kept on the bench as number 8 replacement for Morgan.
I really, really hope that Kvesic isn't shafted in favour of Johnson - the recent injuries to Ford and Wade should show you why he needs to play.
I would be happy for him to start and Hask be on the bench as an impact sub for Morgan.

I'm pretty sure that Dickson and Wigglesworth will be added as the two extra SH's, but I'd be delighted if Robson or Simpson was selected ahead of either of them.
Particularly if they have no intention of ever playing Wigglesworth ahead of Youngs - and i get the firm impression they don't.

This is interesting - because by all accounts 36 will not return in time for the first test. Which gives us an opportunity to see the Kyle/Manu combo.
I just hope Kyle can do himself justice should he get the nod.
I honestly wasn't expecting Trinder - I can't see him playing much at all.

If we see Yarde play on the left wing that would indicate May's demotion.
Slightly upset that Roko isn't touring - although he might end up going after the Barbarians game.

Awesome for Pennell!

As for the Barbarians squad... it's a pretty good team.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Shame that Roko and Daly wont be in the backs, injuries might still occur though. Sinkler is a massive mistake, he can hold his own with anybody and is a player with great potential. I agree with Rats' team apart from Cipriani in for Burns, but i'm not unhappy with the team going out anyway.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

So from that, this is the probable team for the first test (definites/almost definites in bold):

1. Joe Marler
2. Rob Webber
3. Davey Wilson
4. Joe Launchbury
5. Dave Attwood
6. James Haskell
7. Chris Robshaw
8. Ben Morgan
9. Danny Care
10. Freddie Burns
11. Jonny May
12. Kyle Eastmond (36 if fit)
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Marland Yarde
15. Mike Brown

16. Dave Ward/LCD
17. Matt Mullan
18. Henry Thomas
19. Geoff Parling
20. Matt Kvesic
21. Ben Youngs
22. Danny Cipriani
23. Chris Pennell

Prob go with that team expect have Slater on the bench for Parling, (I reckon he will have more impact off the bench and is playing brilliantly). and have Ward Starting also swap cips for Curns. Would of thought Sinckler would have gotten a chance. Also Rokoduguni being left out is criminal imo.


BaaBaas team I would go for.
1. Catt
2. Buchanan
3. Sinckler
4. Kitchener
5. Paterson
6. Gibson
7. Wallace
8. Ewers
9. Robson
10. Slade
11. Rokoduguni
12. Devoto
13. Joesph
14. Sharples
15. Daly

16. Taylor
17. Harrison
18. Collier
19. Matthews
20. Gaskell
21. Simpson
22. Hill
23. Miller

Surprised Stooke isn't in it.

 

[Patchey]

Thats an alright looking team, all things considered. By main concern would be that 10-12 looks like something the All Blacks can target, but Eastmond needs more game time (especially with Manu outside him) so I wouldn't be adverse to seeing him start outside of Cips or Burns.


Squads wise the front row selection and outside backs really grate at me. Sinckler (and to a certain extent Collier) should feel massively hard done by having missed out. Thomas cannot scrummage and Brookes has proven himself to have potential but hasn't been consistent IMO. Why they are being taken and Sinckler and Collier left behind is beyond me. Similarly Daly only being in the BaaBaas squad is madness. He has been one of the best backs in the premiership this season and despite being young has plenty of experience (two seasons as a starter, played for the BaaBaas on their tour last year, has basically had to be the sole provider of creativity in the Wasps back line in the absence of Massi). Its almost as if his progress in the England set up is happening in slow motion, despite being in the 6N training squad and then performing well against England for the Barbarians last year he's only now being trusted to play in a uncapped game.

Happy to see Pennell, Haskell Ward, LCD in the touring squad though.

Also, with only two wingers and two fullbacks named in the NZ 30 we can probably presume that A) and injury on the wing in the first test will result in Brown moving out there and B) Ashton and Goode will be called up.

 

[j'nuh]

Looseheads - good calls. Catt/Mullan was a toughie, would have been happy with either. Neither will get a look-in when Corbs and Vunipola are available anyway.

Hookers - good calls again. Webber and Ward are the obvious 23 players imo. LCD taken along for the experience. Gray to make up the numbers, so not concerned about him being there.

Tightheads - rubbish. Sinckler not being taken doesn't make sense on any level. He's younger and better than those taken. Seems to be consistency for the sake of it.

Locks - more than happy with the selections. Perhaps Kitchener and Paterson are unlucky, but they wouldn't have had a look-in with Lawes yet to join anyway. Slater was the right person to have next been selected.

Back row - concerned about the quality, not the selections. Beyond an Armitage recall, I don't think there's a way we could make this backrow significantly better. Haskell-Robshaw-Morgan to start isn't exactly bad, but lacks a world class player.

Scrum-halves - as expected. Hopefully Robson will make a marker though, for the future.

Fly-half - Cipriani to play a full 80? Tempting to omit Burns and have Twelvetrees or Eastmond as fly-half cover. Happy for Burns to continue to train with the full England squad though, readying him for when he gets back to being good again. (If and when that happens.)

Centres - Trinder is the question mark here? Likely not to be involved and for Burrell and Barritt to replace him after the final. The rest is good. Whether it's Eastmond/Tuilagi or Twelvetrees/Tuilagi, very excited to see the partnership here.

Wings - Yarde was obvious. Rokoduguni perhaps unlucky. Lancaster is putting a bit of faith in picking May. Hopefully May will have an upturn in form.

Full backs - Brown obvious, very glad Pennell is involved.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Also, with only two wingers and two fullbacks named in the NZ 30 we can probably presume that A) and injury on the wing in the first test will result in Brown moving out there and B) Ashton and Goode will be called up.

Maybe Manu will be put on the wing.

Do we reckon that Mako, Hartley, Lawes, Wood, BillyV, Dickson, Farrell, Barritt, Burrell, Ashton and Foden will be brought in.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Bear in mind that some of the Babarians squad may still tour - just not for the first test.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Interesting Allen was in consideration to Tour but injury once again forced they hard, assume that would have been for Trinder? Allen would have been a steady option if 36 can't play and Eastmond gets injuryed and his partnership with Manu would have been very handy.

 

[Mumbles119]

Bear in mind that some of the Babarians squad may still tour - just not for the first test.

With the need for a mid week squad in mind. That should mean some of the Baa Baa squad should definitely be needed?

Overall really happy with the touring squad, and agree with TigsMan. Sinckler and Roko should definitely be involved.
But over the moon about some serious involvement for Chris Pennell being part of the NZ squad and not just the Baa Baa opportunity.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Just to be clear about what I meant regarding extra players going...

If we assume that there will be 12 front rowers going to NZ - 4 of each position.
That means that there will be 1 TH and 2 LH's added next monday.

If we assume both Hartley and Vunipola are going to be injured and that the new guys will come from Northampton, Saracens and the Barbarians squad then the numbers will be made up by these guys:

TH: Sinckler, Collier, Gareth Denman or Tom Mercey. - I cannot see either Denman or Mercey being considered on any level.

LH: Nathan Catt, Ross Harrison, Alex Waller, Alex Corbisiero. - I can't see Harrison going and Corbisiero has already been ruled out.

I think Sinckler or Collier will travel next monday - with the Barbarians performance being used to decide which one.
I think Waller will travel, and if Mako is ruled out then Catt will go too.

Hooker: Seeing as though 4 have already been named, I think that Hartley isn't traveling.

I think the Barbarians game will be used to decide on a couple of other guys too - I wouldn't be surprised to see 2-3 backs travel along with the finalists.

 

[Josht36]

Apologies if this is a silly question. But is the reasoning behind roko being in for the barbarians game to give Lancaster a chance to see him more in the england system. Seems silly not to take him as in my opinion him and Yarde would be the best first test combo. Although I know Lancaster likes to be consistent.

Alot of people seem to be pinning their hopes on Eastmond. He hasn't had the most impressive season. Especially since his referee troubles Devoto has been keeping him out of the Bath team so I would be hoping that Twelvetrees is fit.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Brookes is easily as bad as Thomas in the scrum - really should have taken one of the Quins guys even if they've been in camp a week less.
If Burns starts over Danny then I might have to post the resulting projectile vomit I produce to Lancaster.

Shame not to see Roko, but Lancaster doesn't like to make too many changes at once where he can help it, couple that with May's strong showing at the end of the season and he was always going to be there imo. Yarde has been around the squad for a while now (even when injured) so makes sense for him to go. Hope Roko impresses vs BaaBaas and gets a shot down under.

Absolutely made up for Pennell, as well. A step in the right direction to show you don't have to be playing for a "fashionable" club to be on the England radar.

 

[j'nuh]

Brookes is easily as bad as Thomas in the scrum - really should have taken one of the Quins guys even if they've been in camp a week less.
If Burns starts over Danny then I might have to post the resulting projectile vomit I produce to Lancaster.

Shame not to see Roko, but Lancaster doesn't like to make too many changes at once where he can help it, couple that with May's strong showing at the end of the season and he was always going to be there imo. Yarde has been around the squad for a while now (even when injured) so makes sense for him to go. Hope Roko impresses vs BaaBaas and gets a shot down under.

Absolutely made up for Pennell, as well. A step in the right direction to show you don't have to be playing for a "fashionable" club to be on the England radar.

There's not playing for a fashionable club (although I'd argue a lot of that bias is being eradicated under Lancaster... otherwise it would be strange picking so many Gloucester players!), and there's playing for a Championship side! Ryan has already said that he will not consider allowing Pennell out on loan. I hope the Championship doesn't dull his ability, but I can't see him being picked whilst down there to be honest?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

True enough, I'd be surprised if he was still there come 6 nations time (or if Goode/Watson were available) but that's next year - he's been outstanding, despite being in a side dead last all season, and gotten his reward for it. Good to see!

 

[TheSaffycen]

Apologies if this is a silly question. But is the reasoning behind roko being in for the barbarians game to give Lancaster a chance to see him more in the england system. Seems silly not to take him as in my opinion him and Yarde would be the best first test combo. Although I know Lancaster likes to be consistent.

Not a silly question it's a question I want too ask Lancaster ! You're probably right about the consistency thing though, he probably thinks may needs more of a shot.

Back row - concerned about the quality, not the selections. Beyond an Armitage recall, I don't think there's a way we could make this backrow significantly better. Haskell-Robshaw-Morgan to start isn't exactly bad, but lacks a world class player.

Taking Armitage out of the equation, whole different thread about the Armitage debate, England have a lot of good players. I personally would have called fearns in and had a Fearns-Morgan-Robshaw/Haskell trio, I do agree that we don't have a fully fit in form Croft; who is world class. I don't think it is as much of a problem as fly-half.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Don't make me do it.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

 

[goodNumber10]

Not too unhappy with any of that, continues my belief that Daley will never make a full international - Jack of all, master of none.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Cips cant play in the back row:huh: