[2014 Mid-Year Tests] England

[ratsapprentice]

I'm pretty sure someone is going to move him into the centres though - not many 6'5" FH's around.

 

[Tony Manx]

Most players have clauses written in their contracts that is the team they play for is relegated their contract is nul and void and may leave, same applies to players who sign a pre contract with a club and then the club gets relegated they have an opt out clause eg Masi Matadigo signed a pre contract with USAP and if they go down looks like he could be going to Lyon, but players who have no clauses or the espoirs for example have to stay or buy themselves out of their contracts which can prove to be very expensive.

Certainly the players that joined BO last summer had no get out clauses if relegated and most all of those who have gone or retired were at the natural end of their contracts...That is why a Thomas move is uncertain... RM have to pay compensation and are reluctant to do so....

 

[Peat]

Saints have some promising prospects but run a serious risk relying on them if Myler ships an injury. You can't go around signing or not signing players based on what you've got at U18 level.

And while they clearly rate Myler, they've twice signed some very talented (albeit flaky) fly-halves to compete with him, so maybe they don't rate him that much.

Really, I think the question shouldn't be "Why would you want Freddie Burns" but "Why wouldn't you want Freddie Burns". I know he hasn't had the best season but we're still talking about one of the most talented fly-halves in the country. I think every team that has money/salary space spare and isn't insanely stocked with fly-halves should want him. Which may include Northampton.

 

[Shaggy]

I'd just flat out rather have Cipriani than Hodgson.

Has Cipriani's tackling got any better ... he was pretty bad defensively when he was playing for the Melbourne rebels

... The All Blacks would just run at the 10 slot all day if he were picked

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Has Cipriani's tackling got any better ... he was pretty bad defensively when he was playing for the Melbourne rebels

... The All Blacks would just run at the 10 slot all day if he were picked

Yes, he's unrecognisable from the player he was even as recently as last season. It's really like someone just flipped a switch in his head.
I mean, he's not smashing back forwards in the tackle in the way that Jonny Wilkinson would, but he now has standard defence for a 10, rather than terrible defence for a pro rugby player.

Do remember him making a brilliant try saving tackle on Bath's Samoan backrower Fa'osiliva, who had a full head of steam up charging into the corner, and Cipriani smashed him into touch having tracked across from the opposite wing.
Three months previously he wouldn't have bothered running across pitch, let alone throwing himself infront of a guy twice his size.

 

[Shaggy]

Yes, he's unrecognisable from the player he was even as recently as last season. It's really like someone just flipped a switch in his head.
I mean, he's not smashing back forwards in the tackle in the way that Jonny Wilkinson would, but he now has standard defence for a 10, rather than terrible defence for a pro rugby player.

Do remember him making a brilliant try saving tackle on Bath's Samoan backrower Fa'osiliva, who had a full head of steam up charging into the corner, and Cipriani smashed him into touch having tracked across from the opposite wing.
Three months previously he wouldn't have bothered running across pitch, let alone throwing himself infront of a guy twice his size.

Thanks Olyy ... I really should have a better grasp of what's happening in English rugby, if I'm going to comment on the English thread I suppose ... but I guess I have the same misinformed opinion that the majority of NZ supporters have when it comes to Cipriani ... good to hear (from his point of view) that he's up his defense, that's area of his game that was holding him back IMO

Haven't watched to much Aviva to be honest, but I'll certainly see if I can find that tackle on the net

 

[goodNumber10]

Yes, he's unrecognisable from the player he was even as recently as last season. It's really like someone just flipped a switch in his head.
I mean, he's not smashing back forwards in the tackle in the way that Jonny Wilkinson would, but he now has standard defence for a 10, rather than terrible defence for a pro rugby player.

Do remember him making a brilliant try saving tackle on Bath's Samoan backrower Fa'osiliva, who had a full head of steam up charging into the corner, and Cipriani smashed him into touch having tracked across from the opposite wing.
Three months previously he wouldn't have bothered running across pitch, let alone throwing himself infront of a guy twice his size.

He's always been a decent cover tackler, it's his front line defence that was/is flakey.

He can have the highest tackle count in the Prem but unless i'm watching a different team he still gets himself in the wrong positions and walks the tackle. Fine, but it does mean teams are garunteed momentum with him defending at 10.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

He's always been a decent cover tackler, it's his front line defence that was/is flakey.

He can have the highest tackle count in the Prem but unless i'm watching a different team he still gets himself in the wrong positions and walks the tackle. Fine, but it does mean teams are garunteed momentum with him defending at 10.

I agree, I watched him (I think it was the quins game) and he wrapped up a full steam charging prop really well......but then also went high and got bumped off a winger (or centre).

I guess it's improved bit maybe not international standard because Farrell, ford and even burns can tackle well.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Genuinely think Cipriani is a better defender than Ford.
Ford will be better than Cipriani, but at the moment he lacks the bulk for his technique and gets bumped/fended off way way too easily.

I watch Cipriani week in week out and I'd have no problems with his defence stepping up to international level. When you consider the careers that Cooper and ROG have made for themselves, with far poorer defence than Cipriani....

 

[Shaggy]

Genuinely think Cipriani is a better defender than Ford.
Ford will be better than Cipriani, but at the moment he lacks the bulk for his technique and gets bumped/fended off way way too easily.

I watch Cipriani week in week out and I'd have no problems with his defence stepping up to international level. When you consider the careers that Cooper and ROG have made for themselves, with far poorer defence than Cipriani....

Well I wouldn't say FAR worse ... Coopers defense has got much better too though ... I remember when Cooper played against Cipriani in Super Rugby, the joke was that they both had a "revolving door policy" when it came to tackling

 

[goodNumber10]

Genuinely think Cipriani is a better defender than Ford.
Ford will be better than Cipriani, but at the moment he lacks the bulk for his technique and gets bumped/fended off way way too easily.

I watch Cipriani week in week out and I'd have no problems with his defence stepping up to international level. When you consider the careers that Cooper and ROG have made for themselves, with far poorer defence than Cipriani....

And both ROG and Cooper have been targetted and exposed, and have cost their team games.

I guess it all depends on what you place a premium on, if it's attacking then Cipriani is probably unrivalled, but you take that in the knowledge that your 6/7 will need to assist in the A channel. If you work your defensive system around that then so be it - you could always move defenders around. Personally i wouldn't accomodate it - and i have my worries about Ford as an international 10 because of his size.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

People have stopped targeting his channel at Sale, now, as they know it's not just an easy passage through. Obviously having Seymour/Tuitupou either side helps, but I really get the feeling people are basing far too much importance on years gone by and not how he's playing now.

 

[TheSaffycen]

If there is a genuine fear about Cipriani's defence then why not move Burrell to 12 or even put Barritt there ? His defence is not aggressive but he isn't an easy run through that he used to be. You could even have him defending at 15 if it was a massive problem, I would accommodate him as I feel he brings a lot to the table, and with him playing with Tuitupou and Leota and making them click, I can only imagine if we put Burrell and Tuilagi together and had him in 10. Link him with 36/Eastmond and it is a guarantee we will score tries.
With Ford being to small for intl' rugby i'm not sure, he is a great tackler and as I said before put Burrell/Tuilagi/Barritt next to him and people will quickly stop running down his channel. He has a very good kicking game and looked good on his cameo against Italy with his break and awareness.

 

[goodNumber10]

If there is a genuine fear about Cipriani's defence then why not move Burrell to 12 or even put Barritt there ? His defence is not aggressive but he isn't an easy run through that he used to be. You could even have him defending at 15 if it was a massive problem, I would accommodate him as I feel he brings a lot to the table, and with him playing with Tuitupou and Leota and making them click, I can only imagine if we put Burrell and Tuilagi together and had him in 10. Link him with 36/Eastmond and it is a guarantee we will score tries.
With Ford being to small for intl' rugby i'm not sure, he is a great tackler and as I said before put Burrell/Tuilagi/Barritt next to him and people will quickly stop running down his channel. He has a very good kicking game and looked good on his cameo against Italy with his break and awareness.

yeah, Size in reference to Ford is probably the wrong word - i don't care if he's a midget if he can mix it up with the big boys - i have concerns about his physicality and ability to take 60-70 minutes against a team like South Africa. Farrell for all his faults can mix it up in any of the midfield positions.

Moving anyone to defend elsewhere is pointless. Taking Cipriani as an exampel if you select him as a 10 he has to defend as a 10 otherwise when you win turnover ball etc.. you've suddenly lost one of your key decision maker - or you have to pick a 15 that can cover midfield and make sacrficies elsewhere.

 

[Patchey]

Why is size an issue with Wade and not with Ford then? Just curious as, if anything, wingers have less support from the back row or centres than 10s. I also don't buy the idea that moving a player to defend somewhere he's less vulnerable can't work. Its tricky, but not impossible.

I think we've been pretty spoilt over the last eleven or twelve years as, save for an interlude in the mid-2000s when Wilkinson was broken, we have always had 10s who are more than solid defensivly. Wilkinson and Farrell have both been not just solid but have defended so well that the opposition has had to stop targeting the 10 channel. The only real weak link we've had at 10 for a long time was Charlie Hodgson, and he fixed that during his second spell with England. While a 10 who smashes people in tackles is great but is not an essential skill for a fly-half. If a ten makes the overwhelming majority of his tackles that is basically all he needs to do. There are very few 10s in world rugby who defend like Wilkinson and Farrell and as such aren't targeted at some point during a game by the opposition back row. To demand that Cipriani be some sort of rock who can shut the 10 channel down 100% of the time without any help from his back row is absurd because its asking him to do something that the vast majority of fly-halves at any level of the game are not expected to do.

Also, the point has been raised that all we have to show his improvement is his much better tackling against Premiership opposition. Obviously domestic rugby is a way off the intensity of a test and there is always an uncertainty about whether a player can do in an international jersey what he does week in, week out at home. However to say Cips' defense can't be relied on because we've only seen him tackle well at Premiership level is a bit hypocritical if we then talk about George Ford or Freddie Burns being better candidates. We only have one 10, Owen Farrell, who has had any significant amout of international game time. The other three options have either only had a few caps (in Fords case, both as cameos) when they weren't tested defensovly or were last capped a long time ago. Their performances at Premiership level are therefore all we really have to judge them on. By that measure I don't see how Ford can be marked out as having significant;y better defense than Cipriani.

 

[TheSaffycen]

yeah, Size in reference to Ford is probably the wrong word - i don't care if he's a midget if he can mix it up with the big boys - i have concerns about his physicality and ability to take 60-70 minutes against a team like South Africa. Farrell for all his faults can mix it up in any of the midfield positions.

Moving anyone to defend elsewhere is pointless. Taking Cipriani as an exampel if you select him as a 10 he has to defend as a 10 otherwise when you win turnover ball etc.. you've suddenly lost one of your key decision maker - or you have to pick a 15 that can cover midfield and make sacrficies elsewhere.

Yeah i'm just not sure with Ford, it's like wade he is a great player but most centres look like they can just bump him off with ease. It does all come down too what do you want most, and with England we seem to pick defence before most attributes no matter what position they're in. I don't think this should be the case, obviously you can't just be carrying players (O'Gara/Cooper) but you have to weigh up if you think Cipriani can win you a game or if him slipping of a few tackles will cost you the game.

 

[goodNumber10]

Why is size an issue with Wade and not with Ford then? Just curious as, if anything, wingers have less support from the back row or centres than 10s. I also don't buy the idea that moving a player to defend somewhere he's less vulnerable can't work. Its tricky, but not impossible.

I think we've been pretty spoilt over the last eleven or twelve years as, save for an interlude in the mid-2000s when Wilkinson was broken, we have always had 10s who are more than solid defensivly. Wilkinson and Farrell have both been not just solid but have defended so well that the opposition has had to stop targeting the 10 channel. The only real weak link we've had at 10 for a long time was Charlie Hodgson, and he fixed that during his second spell with England. While a 10 who smashes people in tackles is great but is not an essential skill for a fly-half. If a ten makes the overwhelming majority of his tackles that is basically all he needs to do. There are very few 10s in world rugby who defend like Wilkinson and Farrell and as such aren't targeted at some point during a game by the opposition back row. To demand that Cipriani be some sort of rock who can shut the 10 channel down 100% of the time without any help from his back row is absurd because its asking him to do something that the vast majority of fly-halves at any level of the game are not expected to do.

Also, the point has been raised that all we have to show his improvement is his much better tackling against Premiership opposition. Obviously domestic rugby is a way off the intensity of a test and there is always an uncertainty about whether a player can do in an international jersey what he does week in, week out at home. However to say Cips' defense can't be relied on because we've only seen him tackle well at Premiership level is a bit hypocritical if we then talk about George Ford or Freddie Burns being better candidates. We only have one 10, Owen Farrell, who has had any significant amout of international game time. The other three options have either only had a few caps (in Fords case, both as cameos) when they weren't tested defensovly or were last capped a long time ago. Their performances at Premiership level are therefore all we really have to judge them on. By that measure I don't see how Ford can be marked out as having significant;y better defense than Cipriani.

Not sure anyone has said Ford has significantly better defence, have they?

I agree you're not going to get a 100% shut out, Farrell and Wilkinson get smashed back on occasion but there is a need to be organised and constantly get off the line and make the deicisons when and when not to commit. I don't see that in Cipriani and i feel he walks the tackle over the gainline too often or commit to tackles that are already made by going in on ball (cooper does the same). Ford for all his faults goes low and tends to make at least a chop tackle.

At the end of the day you're not looking for your 10 to be an exocet missile at anything that comes downt he A channel, but you do want him to step up when he absolutely has to and more importantly be consistent.

Moving defenders around can work, but you have to make other sacrifices - the question is are they worth the gains you make by playign someone like Cipriani or Ford.

People in the thread were saying that Cipriani has more internationl experience, yet he's only got 7 caps, against Fords 2 and Burns (3?)

Anyway, i guess we'll all just have to see - i think Burns will go to NZ.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I don't see how you could justify involving Burns with England at any level - not even Saxons.
He has been dreadful.

Scott Wilson is not in the U20's squad in order for him to get a full pre-season, apparently.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The only way burns will tour is because of the limitations of switching players in the eps.

 

[Peat]

I can understand having doubts about Cips - but that's why you take players on tour, to see whether the doubts are justified and whether they can improve with England coaches.

We have at least one slot going free and I believe Cipriani is the best choice. He is the player than the England management know the least about, so that's a knowledge gap that needs plugging. He bows to no one for talent levels. He is in excellent form and is showing real commitment. If it goes wrong, fine, it goes wrong. But its a worthwhile choice and now is the right time to make it as we don't really have any others.