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[2014 EOYT] Scotland vs New Zealand

quite staggering

Tokoroa - small town in Waikato NZ

Has produced
Richard Kahui - New Zealand All Black
Issac Boss - Ireland
Quade Cooper - Australia
Sean Maitland - Scotland

Lucky I think we managed to keep the best player of the lot for a while at least :)

Not to mention Keven Mealamu.

You guys may be on the young side for this legend, but let's not forget the All black great - Walter Little!!!

I also believe All Blacks, Adrian Cashmore and Royce Willis were both from Tokaroa

And if we are really going international, Nicky Little from Fiji.

Not to mention the Paul brothers, Maria Tutaia, and Pero Cameron :)
 
How is this disrespectful?
NZ tour with a group of their best players and select from that.
It's not like they've brought in a load of amateurs for the game.

I've got to agree with you. No it's not the team that NZ would play in a world cup final if it were happening on Saturday but these players are professional and hungry to impress. They wouldn't get anywhere near a NZ squad otherwise. These players will be all out to impress and show they are worthy of a more regular starting place. For anyone otherwise to suggest anything otherwise is disrespectful of these players.

unchanged XV and good to see Jim Hamilton out off the conclusion and good to see Beattie and Cusiter back in the team :D looking forward to this yet again

Couldn't agree more.
 
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So can anyone reconcile this starting XV with the AB team management saying this tour was supposed to be a dress rehearsal for the RWC? I.e. this is our semi final!!

Did I miss something?

Read Hansen was comparing this with our final pool game against Tonga.

So hence the selections.
 
So can anyone reconcile this starting XV with the AB team management saying this tour was supposed to be a dress rehearsal for the RWC? I.e. this is our semi final!!

Did I miss something?

Perhaps we mis-understood what they meant by simulating a RWC. Perhaps they just wanted to simulated going from an 'easy' final pool match (USA, Scotland) to a quarter-final (England, Wales) twice ;) I think they were just talking bull**** though - they were trying to justify a rugby-based reason for playing USA, when everyone knew it was all about the money.....

oh since no-one has mention yet here is the scotland team

Stuart Hogg; Sean Maitland, Mark Bennett, Alex Dunbar, Tommy Seymour; Finn Russell, Greig Laidlaw; Alasdair Dickinson, Ross Ford, Euan Murray, Richie Gray, Jonny Gray, Rob Harley, Blair Cowan, Adam Ashe.

Replacements: Fraser Brown, Gordon Reid, Geoff Cross, Tim Swinson, Johnnie Beattie, Chris Cusiter, Duncan Weir, Sean Lamont.

I obviously haven't been watching near enough of Scotland recently, as I'm unfamiliar with a number of those names! The loose-forward trio as a whole is pretty new to me, as is the 10 and the midfield combination (and a couple of bench front-rowers too). Is this close to the strongest side Scotland could put out or do they have a a few injuries? I was expecting to see the likes of Strokosch, Denton and Brown in the loose-forwards....
 
Perhaps we mis-understood what they meant by simulating a RWC. Perhaps they just wanted to simulated going from an 'easy' final pool match (USA, Scotland) to a quarter-final (England, Wales) twice ;) I think they were just talking bull**** though - they were trying to justify a rugby-based reason for playing USA, when everyone knew it was all about the money.....



I obviously haven't been watching near enough of Scotland recently, as I'm unfamiliar with a number of those names! The loose-forward trio as a whole is pretty new to me, as is the 10 and the midfield combination (and a couple of bench front-rowers too). Is this close to the strongest side Scotland could put out or do they have a a few injuries? I was expecting to see the likes of Strokosch, Denton and Brown in the loose-forwards....
i would actually say yes very close because the guys are young and can seriously impress,
this is how the two teams compare cap wise


Alasdair Dickinson (37) 1. Joe Moody (6)
Ross Ford (79) 2. James Parsons *
Euan Murray (61) 3. Charlie Faumuina (25)
Richie Gray (41) 4. Jeremy Thrush (10)
Jonny Gray (6) 5. Dominic Bird (1)
Rob Harley (8) 6. Richie McCaw - cap (135)
Blair Cowan (4) 7. Sam Cane (21)
Adam Ashe (2) 8. Victor Vito (25)
Greig Laidlaw - cap (32) 9. TJ Perenara (9)
Finn Russell (3) 10. Daniel Carter (101)
Tommy Seymour (11) 11. Charles Piutau (12)
Alex Dunbar (9) 12. Ryan Crotty (11)
Mark Bennett (1) 13. Malakai Fekitoa (7)
Sean Maitland (14) 14. Colin Slade (15)
Stuart Hogg (25) 15. Ben Smith (36)




Fraser Brown (1) 16. Dane Coles (25)
Gordon Reid (4) 17. Wyatt Crockett (34)
Geoff Cross (33) 18. Ben Franks (40)
Tim Swinson (9) 19. Luke Romano (16)
Johnnie Beattie (32) 20. Liam Messam (38)
Chris Cusiter (69) 21. Augustine Pulu (1)
Duncan Weir (16) 22. Sonny Bill Williams (21)
Sean Lamont (89) 23. Julian Savea (31)
oh hi there, haven't seen you around here, welcome if i haven't already and good to see another member joining the scotland crew here and with caps stats i kinda expected low caps from both side but have impressive players on both sides
 
so nick as a NZ'er you'd say Dan Carter starts ahead of Aaron Cruden if fit and healthy and everything ? It doesn't seem like that's what Hansen would do. Haven't seen much of Dan Carter at 10 in a Blacks jersey lately (although I understand he hasn't been 100%), and the last time I saw him play SR he was wearing 12, so that's why I say I'm guessing he's 3rd option at FH for NZ, those two reasons. Cruden I'm quite sure is their no.1 guy and then Barrett has been playing frequently for the AB and has impressed, just to build the future's sake I'd guess DC is 3rd.
You'd really call DC the no. 1 option right now, do you back that claim up unconditionally ?

Barrett has been good and would be my second favourite gong right now (behind a fit and able DC). I wouldn't, and I very much doubt Hansen would, have any troubles giving him a start in the black jersey. Wouldn't be my pick for a World Cup Final, but I wouldn't be having nightmares about it either. Shesh, if Stephen Donald can do it anyone can. But Barrett's strength, I feel, is off the bench as an impact player. He's chased down some of the fastest backline players in the world, just ask Australia and South Africa.

Nobody commands a pack around the park like Daniel Carter does. As solid as Barrett and Cruden are, they've never had the army-general command Carter has. Which is what a first five should be good at. Carter was doing offloads and brushing through defence before SBW made it fashionable. But it's the way he kicks, and WHEN he kicks. The only person who can rival his kicking game in New Zealand is Dagg. I could go on about Carter's positives. Anyway, sure he may be rusty. And you probably won't see the BEST Dan Carter out there against Scotland. But with consistent game time, he is our man.

Cruden, while he be solid in some areas, comes nowhere close to a fit Dan Carter and never has done. The fact he has started so often is more down to the fact Barrett thrives on coming off the bench, and Slade will injure a finger picking up the telephone.
 
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Hmmm the All Blacks side is very interesting - Hansen and co. have been sending out very mixed messages over the last year or so I have no idea what to believe anymore.

▶ Quite surprised to see Parsons starting at hooker. I think most people predicted we would see him on the bench for this match, given his late call up to the team. At the end of last year the coaches were unwilling to take a hooker on tour with them as they didn't think anyone was up to the mark - I struggle to see how that has changed much in a year's time, yet all of sudden the coaches are realising that they need another hooker? That just sounds like poor planning to me.
▶ The same can be said at halfback. Earlier this week I think Hansen said that Smith was likely to be retained at 9 as Perenara 'would get chances to play next season'. Next season? Why hasn't he been starting in matches we've already had this year? England in the third test, and Argentina in Argentina were both perfect opportunities to give Perenara a go against quality sides - particularly ones with aggressive forwards. I'm just glad to see that the coaches have seen reason and are starting Perenara this weekend.
▶ Colin Slade at wing is surprising, but completely understandable. They're evidently trying to figure out if has what it takes to cover there in test matches, and I think he will do a good job of it in the weekend. If Slade can cover 10, 11, 14 and 15 he becomes a very serious contender for making the World Cup squad (and being a regular bench player for the All Blacks). If Carter can prove he is fit for the Cup then it is unlikely he will be subbed off much in matches, in which case someone like Slade becomes invaluable. His goal kicking is also better than that of Cruden or Barrett, meaning he's a good player to close out a match.
▶ McCaw/Cane had to happen eventually, and I was actually surprised to hear McCaw had never started at six before! It will be good to see Vito get a run at 8. Is it possible that Messam could once again miss out on a World Cup squad if the All Blacks only take five loose forwards?
▶ Great to see Smith at fullback. If he and Piutau have good games we will hopefully see them retain their spots next week!
 
▶ McCaw/Cane had to happen eventually, and I was actually surprised to hear McCaw had never started at six before! It will be good to see Vito get a run at 8. Is it possible that Messam could once again miss out on a World Cup squad if the All Blacks only take five loose forwards?

Were you watching One News last night too? I'm sure that's wrong. I've seen McCaw play 6, 7 and 8 and different times in his career. The memory isn't always flash, so that could be Canterbury and/or the Crusaders. To say he's never started at blindside before I'm pretty sure is wrong. But maybe it is the first time for the ABs.
 
Were you watching One News last night too? I'm sure that's wrong. I've seen McCaw play 6, 7 and 8 and different times in his career. The memory isn't always flash, so that could be Canterbury and/or the Crusaders. To say he's never started at blindside before I'm pretty sure is wrong. But maybe it is the first time for the ABs.

Sorry, should have clarified - I did mean never started at six for the All Blacks. He's spent time there over the last year or two, I think, but he's never had the 6 jersey on his back.

I'm not really sure whether or not he has for Canterbury/Crusaders. Is it McCaw or Todd that plays at 6 when they're both on the field? I think McCaw?
 
Sorry, should have clarified - I did mean never started at six for the All Blacks. He's spent time there over the last year or two, I think, but he's never had the 6 jersey on his back.

I'm not really sure whether or not he has for Canterbury/Crusaders. Is it McCaw or Todd that plays at 6 when they're both on the field? I think McCaw?

McCaw wore the 6 jersey for the Crusaders when starting alongside Todd (this season at least - in the past I think Todd has worn the 6 jersey). If I recall correctly it was some fella in the 6 jersey that conceded a (debatable) penalty late in Super Rugby final that Foley duly slotted between the uprights....
 
Hmmm the All Blacks side is very interesting - Hansen and co. have been sending out very mixed messages over the last year or so I have no idea what to believe anymore.

▶ Quite surprised to see Parsons starting at hooker. I think most people predicted we would see him on the bench for this match, given his late call up to the team. At the end of last year the coaches were unwilling to take a hooker on tour with them as they didn't think anyone was up to the mark - I struggle to see how that has changed much in a year's time, yet all of sudden the coaches are realising that they need another hooker? That just sounds like poor planning to me.
▶ The same can be said at halfback. Earlier this week I think Hansen said that Smith was likely to be retained at 9 as Perenara 'would get chances to play next season'. Next season? Why hasn't he been starting in matches we've already had this year? England in the third test, and Argentina in Argentina were both perfect opportunities to give Perenara a go against quality sides - particularly ones with aggressive forwards. I'm just glad to see that the coaches have seen reason and are starting Perenara this weekend.
▶ Colin Slade at wing is surprising, but completely understandable. They're evidently trying to figure out if has what it takes to cover there in test matches, and I think he will do a good job of it in the weekend. If Slade can cover 10, 11, 14 and 15 he becomes a very serious contender for making the World Cup squad (and being a regular bench player for the All Blacks). If Carter can prove he is fit for the Cup then it is unlikely he will be subbed off much in matches, in which case someone like Slade becomes invaluable. His goal kicking is also better than that of Cruden or Barrett, meaning he's a good player to close out a match.
▶ McCaw/Cane had to happen eventually, and I was actually surprised to hear McCaw had never started at six before! It will be good to see Vito get a run at 8. Is it possible that Messam could once again miss out on a World Cup squad if the All Blacks only take five loose forwards?
▶ Great to see Smith at fullback. If he and Piutau have good games we will hopefully see them retain their spots next week!

From the reading I've done, that's right on the money, particularly with regard to Slade ... his only chances of making the RWC squad is to either be included if the other 10's get injured ... hmmn, let's not go there :) ... or to prove his versatility, and be included as a utility.

With regard to the fullback situation, I was reading (http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/63171561/Hansen-says-don-t-read-much-into-McCaws-shift) that Hansen had every intention of resting Dagg, and putting that other fella ... what's his name ... oh yeah ... B.Smith, at fullback for the England match, but Cory Jane's injury forced a change in plans.

... So, here we have B.Smith getting another chance at 15 ... on a side note, I don't get the whole Dagg V Smith thing. If everything goes well for the RWC (but when does that happen) we are likely to see them "managed" and both appearing regularly at 15 anyway ... hopefully they'll be selected when they are likely to have the best impact against opposition that best suits their style of play
 
I think that's correct, all players are suited to different styles of play. Some deal with agile oppositions with good backlines like the Wallabies well, while some thrive on the confrontational forward packs from the northern hemisphere. I've always said yes, Dagg needs to work on his tackling because it has been poor. But some posters on here are pretty keen to downplay any other skills he has, and pretend like it doesn't exist. I think that sort of stuff is what separates an arm chair critic with a clear personal bias and a selector. Personally I love both players, I just wish the analysis on here was more accurate.
 
Perhaps we mis-understood what they meant by simulating a RWC. Perhaps they just wanted to simulated going from an 'easy' final pool match (USA, Scotland) to a quarter-final (England, Wales) twice ;) I think they were just talking bull**** though - they were trying to justify a rugby-based reason for playing USA, when everyone knew it was all about the money.....
Bingo.

I love the ABs, I love pretty much everything about how they manage our national team, but in this instance I feel like we have been fed a pile of BS.

With that behind us, I like what they are trying with this team. Good to see Parsons get a start, so we can see what he's got at test level. All the other changes make sense too. The ABs have the luxury of being able to make wholesale changes, and experiment, even against strong opposition like Scotland. I think its worth seeing what some of these guys have got!

I'm particularly keen to see Carter, Piutau, and Cane as these are all guys who haven't had much game time of late and injury free, could all play a very big roll in RWC2015.
 
I think that's correct, all players are suited to different styles of play. Some deal with agile oppositions with good backlines like the Wallabies well, while some thrive on the confrontational forward packs from the northern hemisphere. I've always said yes, Dagg needs to work on his tackling because it has been poor. But some posters on here are pretty keen to downplay any other skills he has, and pretend like it doesn't exist. I think that sort of stuff is what separates an arm chair critic with a clear personal bias and a selector. Personally I love both players, I just wish the analysis on here was more accurate.

There is no doubt arm chair critics are biased towards certain players. There is equally no doubt that selectors have their favourite players too. It is only natural that the trust players that the know a lot about an have delivered for them in the past. In this case I think it is pretty clear that (rightly or wrongly) Dagg is a favourite of the selectors. I don't think anyone is denying that Dagg has very strong aspects to his game - his ability under the high ball, strong positional play, and booming punt are a real asset at test level - however he does have a number of obvious weaknesses in his game too. His tackling isn't up to standard, he offers little with ball in hand, and his distribution isn't up to scratch either IMO (he always seems to pass behind supporting players).

I think for many people the problem is not necessarily that Dagg is starting at fullback, it is that Ben Smith is not starting at fullback. We are forced to play the best fullback in the world a position that he is far less effective just because Dagg's punting is apparently irreplaceable.....I just don't buy it. It is not as though Ben Smith doesn't have a very good punt too, and is pretty phenomenal under the high ball himself. Not only is Ben Smith a 'safer' option than Dagg at fullback (better tackler, equally good under the high ball and positionally, lower error-rate etc), he brings a also brings whole new dimension to the backline with his counter-attacking abilities from the back. As Shaggy pints out though it sounds as though Smith would have started at fullback against England had Cory Jane been fit, so it does appear that Dagg is less entrenched in the 15 jersey than he has been previously.

If you don't know already am off course incredible biased towards Smith - I've been ranting on about him on this boards for the last 5 years - but I do think a 11. Savea, 14. Piutau, 15. Smith is the way forward for the AB's.
 
If you don't know already am off course incredible biased towards Smith - I've been ranting on about him on this boards for the last 5 years - but I do think a 11. Savea, 14. Piutau, 15. Smith is the way forward for the AB's.

Every single Ab's fan feels the same I am sure.
 
so nick as a NZ'er you'd say Dan Carter starts ahead of Aaron Cruden if fit and healthy and everything ? It doesn't seem like that's what Hansen would do. Haven't seen much of Dan Carter at 10 in a Blacks jersey lately (although I understand he hasn't been 100%), and the last time I saw him play SR he was wearing 12, so that's why I say I'm guessing he's 3rd option at FH for NZ, those two reasons. Cruden I'm quite sure is their no.1 guy and then Barrett has been playing frequently for the AB and has impressed, just to build the future's sake I'd guess DC is 3rd.
You'd really call DC the no. 1 option right now, do you back that claim up unconditionally ?

Don't take what people say at the letter like that...:rolleyes: try to understand what the poster is saying - I'm saying, imagine you're Cotter or worse a Scottish player and you see the AB played their very best possible lineup in Twickenham and then a week later come to you with an almost complete B team. OF COURSE as the rules go you have a group of guys and can pick any you fancy, yes, that much everybody understands; but then there's the human element that nullifies the mathematical one. You see what your opponent thinks of you loud and clear when they're coming to your backyard with a B side.

If I'm a Scott playing in front of my home crowd I don't care much for "experimental" this "they can pick from their group" that. It's obviously demeaning de facto, whether it's fine from Hansen to do that or not, I'm not actually blaming Hansen. If I were the Scotts this would bring heaps of confidence and fire to my belly, like: oh you're playing that side are you ? Alright then.
The Scotts are on a high and I don't see them getting a much better chance against the AB any time soon. But I'm not calling out Hansen for his move. In fact as my previous post states, I quite like the confidence and "risk-taking".

Aaron Cruden has his fans and so does Barrett but the consensus among AB supporters and the coaching staff is that Dan Carter is numero uno. Hansen is a very loyal coach - he continues to pick Dagg when many wouldn't. Carter probably would have started against England but it would have been a risk given how little rugby he has played recently.

That certainly isn't the worst Scottish side we have seen in recent years but the All Blacks should beat them comfortably, second stringers or not.
 
Don't see what the big deal is with Dagg v Smith ... Neither of them are Robbie Malneek or Tom Marshall :)
 
Dagg and Smith are both mercurial talents in their own right.
We need more than one brilliant fullback for a RWC squad next year.
Injuries abound in the physical game. You never know who you will need to fulfil roles or when...
Is Stephen Donald keeping fit?
 
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