New Zealand as World Champions need to change themselves

[ranger]

All of a good standard not all of international standard and that is what darwin implied I believe? Ah, nvm he said close to.

Rudi Wulf's playing for Toulon, seen him play this season played very alright. Off the subject though.

It would be interesting if you, melhor or psychic duck could pick out which players are not of international standard, and to give reasons as to why not. (and i judge international standard to mean being of comparable standard to the average winger at the World Cup. I admit not all are All Black standard but i would hold that as a higher bar than international)

Wulf came back to NZ at the tail end of this years Super 14, may have even played a game for the Blues as an injury replacement. He definitely played the entire ITM cup and has been selected for the Blues squad next season.

 

[JW.]

It would be interesting if you, melhor or psychic duck could pick out which players are not of international standard, and to give reasons as to why not. (and i judge international standard to mean being of comparable standard to the average winger at the World Cup. I admit not all are All Black standard but i would hold that as a higher bar than international)

Wulf came back to NZ at the tail end of this years Super 14, may have even played a game for the Blues as an injury replacement. He definitely played the entire ITM cup and has been selected for the Blues squad next season.

What standard would you call International standard? As I automaticly think about England.

I'd glady cast my 'judgement' .

 

[Dizzy]

What standard would you call International standard? As I automaticly think about England.

I'd glady cast my 'judgement' .

Ummm... duuuhhhhh, the obvious answer to this question is,..... well let me ask Mr. PDV

Sir what would you call the international standard?
PDV: Are you seriously asking me that question?.. Everybody knows John Smit is the epitomy of International Rugby and you shouldn't be so racist.

 

[ranger]

What standard would you call International standard? As I automaticly think about England.

I'd glady cast my 'judgement' .

I would judge it to be the mean level of all the wingers in the world cup. If we were to get all scientific about it we could go over stats from every winger in the tournament and work out a way to assign them all a rating between 0 and 1. Then divide the sum of all the ratings by the number of wings in the tournament, finding a rating which would represent the average level of a winger of world cup tier international standard. You could compare every winger to Ashton, but he is a far way above the average international.

Chris Ashton, Digby Ione, George North etc pick the curve up, Alaska Taufa, Cătălin Nicolae etc drag it down. I judge international standard to be somewhere in the middle.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

What standard would you call International standard? As I automaticly think about England.

I'd glady cast my 'judgement' .

I think he's saying an 'average side at the world cup'. Maybe teams like Georgia, Canada, Scotland or Fiji and the wingers that play for sides of that sort of quality.

 

[JW.]

I would judge it to be the mean level of all the wingers in the world cup. If we were to get all scientific about it we could go over stats from every winger in the tournament and work out a way to assign them all a rating between 0 and 1. Then divide the sum of all the ratings by the number of wings in the tournament, finding a rating which would represent the average level of a winger of world cup tier international standard. You could compare every winger to Ashton, but he is a far way above the average international.

Chris Ashton, Digby Ione, George North etc pick the curve up, Alaska Taufa, Cătălin Nicolae etc drag it down. I judge international standard to be somewhere in the middle.

I'd have to agree all of them have the talent to play at a RWC. Italy, Romania, Georgia etc. All depends on what you call international class do we call international class tier 1 or beyond?

I think he's saying an 'average side at the world cup'. Maybe teams like Georgia, Canada, Scotland or Fiji and the wingers that play for sides of that sort of quality.

With this I would have to agree, expect for Fiji. Altough they would get into the squad.

HECK! They should al be able to get into the England squad if freaking M.Banahan is able to get in .

 

[Seaton]

I think he's saying an 'average side at the world cup'. Maybe teams like Georgia, Canada, Scotland or Fiji and the wingers that play for sides of that sort of quality.

Now now, if there is one thing that Max Evans is not, it is that he is average.

And even though he played centre, DTH van de Merwe is also a fantastic wing for his club. Niether are All Black material granted, but I doubt you would have any qualms with either of these players representing your national side.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Now now, if there is one thing that Max Evans is not, it is that he is average.

And even though he played centre, DTH van de Merwe is also a fantastic wing for his club. Niether are All Black material granted, but I doubt you would have any qualms with either of these players representing your national side.

(Draws a big breath) What I am saying is that those sides overall (not individually) represent average sides for wing talent when you look at the very best of World Cup level and the very least. I'm quite aware of the talent of Max Evans and that he as an individual represents an above average talent for World Cup wings. He's probably not in the top 10 in the whole cup (given each team brings 4 on average and there were 20 teams), but he'd be reasonably close. I am also very aware of DTH van der Merwe.

Both those players received a reasonable increase in skill points attributes when I did most of the RWC 2011 editing project for PS3 on the forums a while back and I was very careful with all teams to recognise talent that was ignored by the developers in so called tier 2 and the bottom of tier 1 teams.

 

[smartcooky]

Not trying to draw any conclusions from the numbers, but also keep in mind these figures:

France population: 65 million
New Zealand population: 4.3 million
Registered players in France: 314,000 (could not find out how many are registered adults)
Registered players in New Zealand: 137,835 (28,288 adults)

116,292... roughly four times as many as New Zealand. If that translates up through the ranks, they are better placed than we are to fill their Top 14 with French players, however, you have to take into account that their second division, the ProD2 (16 teams) is also professional.

So, if you want to look at it purely from a mathematical standpoint

New Zealand 5 professional teams from 28,300 adults = 5,660 per team
France 30 professional teams from 116,300 adults = 3,876 per team

Its not hugely different, but it is harder for the French

 

[Melhor Time]

116,292... roughly four times as many as New Zealand. If that translates up through the ranks, they are better placed than we are to fill their Top 14 with French players, however, you have to take into account that their second division, the ProD2 (16 teams) is also professional.

So, if you want to look at it purely from a mathematical standpoint

New Zealand 5 professional teams from 28,300 adults = 5,660 per team
France 30 professional teams from 116,300 adults = 3,876 per team

Its not hugely different, but it is harder for the French

The mathematical argument says there should be more imports in Super Rugby - in all the sides. The fact that the number is so low suggests that things could be different - something thats been covered in this debate.

Can the sides make do without imports? Yes, and this has been the point all along. The players are there but there are better ones who could be snapped up but it is not only, firstly, such a rare thing to see but the players are, secondly, not welcomed and its hard to find a Kiwi poster on this thread saying otherwise. The suggestion that Imhoff is of Super Rugby standard got the response of you don´t know anything about New Zealand rugby. All this does is backs up these two points. Add to this the mathematics which Smartcooky concludes as being not hugely different, but harder for France, and maybe, just maybe, some of you can appreciate why some people, like myself and Psychic Duck have said what we have.

There are posters here laying down bait asking for all Kiwi Super Rugby wingers to be rated. No need to do so whatsoever and its clear that the result would merely see a repeat of posters saying this only shows how little you know of New Zealand rugby. International standard differs per team as there are specified tiers and even tiers within tiers. Max Evans has been mentioned. Clearly of Super Rugby standard. He played vs Imhoff two weeks back for Castres vs Racing Metro. Just a little example of how interesting the Top 14 is.

 

[nickdnz]

The mathematical argument says there should be more imports in Super Rugby - in all the sides. The fact that the number is so low suggests that things could be different - something thats been covered in this debate.

Can the sides make do without imports? Yes, and this has been the point all along. The players are there but there are better ones who could be snapped up but it is not only, firstly, such a rare thing to see but the players are, secondly, not welcomed and its hard to find a Kiwi poster on this thread saying otherwise. The suggestion that Imhoff is of Super Rugby standard got the response of you don´t know anything about New Zealand rugby. All this does is backs up these two points. Add to this the mathematics which Smartcooky concludes as being not hugely different, but harder for France, and maybe, just maybe, some of you can appreciate why some people, like myself and Psychic Duck have said what we have.

There are posters here laying down bait asking for all Kiwi Super Rugby wingers to be rated. No need to do so whatsoever and its clear that the result would merely see a repeat of posters saying this only shows how little you know of New Zealand rugby. International standard differs per team as there are specified tiers and even tiers within tiers. Max Evans has been mentioned. Clearly of Super Rugby standard. He played vs Imhoff two weeks back for Castres vs Racing Metro. Just a little example of how interesting the Top 14 is.

1. How did you work that out. Smartcookie's logic suggests that it is harder for the French to field home players to each of their clubs, as there are 3,876 adult registered players per club, where as in New Zealand's Super Rugby franchises there is 5,660 adult registered players per club. Therefore each club in New Zealand has more players to pick from and less need to import.

2. The point being, which you haven't grasped, is that you have made statements which don't show that you have seen the players play, which you are hoping to replace with foreign talent. You (foolishly) chose the wing position to make your point, but there are at least 20-25 wingers in New Zealand whom would essentially be guarenteed a position in almost any team in the world outside the top 8 (some would convincingly make the top 8), and this is outside of our choice wingers at this RWC. You then selected Declan O'Donnell to make a point that if he can make it into Super Rugby then Imhoff can despite almost anyone who has seen Declan O'Donnell play knows he's probably one of New Zealand's most promising wingers.

3. Your entire premise is that there are better players that could be selected outside of New Zealand, but we choose not to select them. That's not the case. There simply are no players outside New Zealand which are all of the following -

a) Better than existing talent (especially in the backline)
b) Comes at an affordable price (rules out pretty much anyone earning over $60,000 (NZ) or 30,000 (Euro) for a first year contract)
c) Has shown interest in playing in New Zealand (ie trying to earn selection by playing club level or at the minimum NPC or publically gone looking for a SR contract ie Haskell)

You claim that foreign talent aren't welcome. I can't find a post on here that says that (It's a case of you reading what you want to read, yet again). What people have been trying to drill into you, is that signing with a New Zealand franchise comes with limitations which all New Zealand and foreign players have to accept (especially financially). People are also not willing to spend more money on inferior players than home talent. You have an amazing ability to give very little credit to the New Zealand Super Rugby Franchises and NPC players. You have consistantly. It's like me saying, "Why aren't more New Zealand football players playing in the English Premiership? They are making it hard for us on purpose" When in reality, the reason why more New Zealand players don't make it into the Premiership, is because they are not considered better than the incumbent talent. You've so far said that so-and-so is better, but done nothing to back up why you think he is better than the existing talent. Because it's not the opinion of many players who have seen the incumbents play, don't get frustrated when your point isn't automatically accepted. For the record, I had no trouble producing 20 wingers. I'd have had trouble producing 30 wingers better than Imhoff, however SupeRugby sqauds in NZ don't need 30 wingers.

There probably is room for New Zealand to recuite a few Argentinian locks. Providing they meet the three criteria above.

You say "Max Evans has been mentioned. Clearly of Super Rugby standard. He played vs Imhoff two weeks back for Castres vs Racing Metro. Just a little example of how interesting the Top 14 is.". I'm left a little confused at what point you are trying to make here. From memory I did this back in first year Philosophy.

Premise 1: Max Evans is a Super Rugby standard player playing in the French Top 14
Premise 2: Juan Imhoff plays in the Top 14 against Max Evans a Super Rugby Standard player, therefore
Conclusion: Juan Imhoff is a Super Rugby standard player.

Without patronizing you, this is unsound and invalid.

 

[psychic duck]

As Melhor says if every Tier 1 nation had about 6 players who wouldn't otherwise be playing pro rugby World Rugby would suffer, that is a fact

Georgia would never have progressed into a competitive side without France signing up their best players

Argentina would never have become a side that can compete with and beat Tier 1 nations

Romania, USA, Canada, Samoa, Tonga and Fiji would all be weaker as well

international rugby would be more like cricket with only 8 or 9 competitive teams, is that you want?

Why don't you give me 20 Argentinian names who could force out 20 NZ wingers?.

that is a silly statement, obviously there aren't 20 Argentine wingers who could force out 20 NZ wingers, I'm just saying that 1 of Argentina's best and most talented wingers is good enough to fit in there somewhere

Out of curiosity what has Juan Imhoff done to be considered such a good player? (serious question). Last time I checked he has played a season of Vodacom Cup Rugby (South Africa's third-tier competition), and played a couple of games for Argentina (largely off the bench). To me he is in the same sort of boat as most of the rookie New Zealand wings: talented young players, but largely unproven at a high level of rugby (of course Imhoff's limited international experience gives him a slight edge). Franchises are highly unlikely to pursue a talented unproven player they have seen very little of (Imhoff) over a talented unproven player they have seen a lot more of (Nemani, O'Donnell et. al.). By the way how is Imhoff going for Racing Metro (I understand he's played a couple of games for them now)?

Juan Imhoff has been a revelation this year for Argentina,he was the leading try scorer in the Vodacom Cup and nominated for player of the year, has looked far too good for amateur defences back in Argentina and has a phenomenal strike rate back there, and when he played for Argentina he has looked impressive as well

you're right he hasn't played too much at that high a level, but he has looked a class apart from the level he's been playing at and done well when he's had an opportunity at international level, he did well on his debut for Racing and played a role in their winning try against Castres, and had a quiet second match but it's too early too judge yet

I would say he is ahead in development than a rookie fourth choice NZ winger, as he has won a contract with one of France's top clubs, which I doubt a rookie fourth choice winger could do

Is this guy the most one eyed argintina fan on earth???

what comment is one eyed? I'm sure Melhor acknowledges faults in the Argentine set up as well, such as ridiculous prolongation of professionalism in Argentina, and on the pitch I'm sure he would admit that Argentina haven't played that well over the last three years and doesn't pretend that Argentina are exactly going to be expecting to win the Rugby Championship right away

and by the way, you spelt Argentina wrong

 

[cardassian]

I'm just saying that 1 of Argentina's best and most talented wingers is good enough to fit in there somewhere

Agreed, however most people won't do it for 1/4 of the salary they can get in England, let alone the money they can get in France.

 

[nickdnz]

As Melhor says if every Tier 1 nation had about 6 players who wouldn't otherwise be playing pro rugby World Rugby would suffer, that is a fact

Georgia would never have progressed into a competitive side without France signing up their best players

Argentina would never have become a side that can compete with and beat Tier 1 nations

Romania, USA, Canada, Samoa, Tonga and Fiji would all be weaker as well

international rugby would be more like cricket with only 8 or 9 competitive teams, is that you want? (1)

that is a silly statement, obviously there aren't 20 Argentine wingers who could force out 20 NZ wingers, I'm just saying that 1 of Argentina's best and most talented wingers is good enough to fit in there somewhere (2)

Juan Imhoff has been a revelation this year for Argentina,he was the leading try scorer in the Vodacom Cup and nominated for player of the year, has looked far too good for amateur defences back in Argentina and has a phenomenal strike rate back there, and when he played for Argentina he has looked impressive as well

you're right he hasn't played too much at that high a level, but he has looked a class apart from the level he's been playing at and done well when he's had an opportunity at international level, he did well on his debut for Racing and played a role in their winning try against Castres, and had a quiet second match but it's too early too judge yet

I would say he is ahead in development than a rookie fourth choice NZ winger, as he has won a contract with one of France's top clubs, which I doubt a rookie fourth choice winger could do (3)

what comment is one eyed? I'm sure Melhor acknowledges faults in the Argentine set up as well, such as ridiculous prolongation of professionalism in Argentina, and on the pitch I'm sure he would admit that Argentina haven't played that well over the last three years and doesn't pretend that Argentina are exactly going to be expecting to win the Rugby Championship right away

and by the way, you spelt Argentina wrong

you're really not funny I'm afraid

1. No one is saying France have not been helpful to tier 2/3 teams. Of course they have. They've been inept in their own way, essentially forcing a minority of players to not play for their national teams, but on the whole their professional set up has helped teams like Argentina, Canada, Georgia, USA, Romania et al grow from training their players to be professional. No one has disputed that. And the French clubs benefit from some of the great players they have produced and signed. But the reality is, New Zealand cannot afford to provide the same level of help. We don't have millionaires backing our franchises in the same way the French do so we can't pay those players as much. Our big carrot is an All Black jersey, which doesn't do much for players in Canada, USA and Argentina. We also only have five professional teams to pick our own players from, as apposed to the 30 odd that France has, so we have less room to take on imports and still develop world class players (who on ommission would not doubt play in France for more money).

2. You would think so...

3. The problem with this is, Super Rugby is still used as a development tool for young NZ players. It's not about results like that. Interestingly, starters for French teams often wouldn't make the top four in Super Rugby. Not always, but often. Look at the players who weren't good enough for NZ franchises that have glowed for French teams. Census Johnston and Soane Tonga'uiha looked decidedly average in New Zealand before playing in France and England and being considered two of the best props in the world (despite NZ always being told they've got weak scrums). Plenty of players who didn't get many games of Super Rugby went on to star in France, especially in the wing department.

Sereli Bobo (who used to play for my club Johnsonville) was behind Hosea Gear, Lome Fa'atau and Ma'a Nonu in 2004 before being snatched up by an Italian team Parma, and then to Biarritz and now starting for Racing Metro 98

Villimoni Delasau was rated behind Rico Gear, Scott Hamilton and Caleb Ralph (lol) in 2005 (playing only 4 matches) before joining the Highlanders. In the Highlanders he did a bit better playing in 8 matches but still being behind Ben Blair and Roy Kinikinilau.

Viliame Waqaseduadua was rated behind Anthony Tuitavake, Doug Howlett, Joe Rokocoko, Mils Muliaina at the Blues and Sivivatu, Lelia Masaga, Mils Muliaina at the Chiefs. He was then picked up by Brive who he started much of the season.

In fact there are a whole load of starting players in the T14 which were either fourth choice in their position or not even selected for a Super Rugby team.

 

[Seaton]

(Draws a big breath) What I am saying is that those sides overall (not individually) represent average sides for wing talent when you look at the very best of World Cup level and the very least. I'm quite aware of the talent of Max Evans and that he as an individual represents an above average talent for World Cup wings. He's probably not in the top 10 in the whole cup (given each team brings 4 on average and there were 20 teams), but he'd be reasonably close. I am also very aware of DTH van der Merwe.

Both those players received a reasonable increase in skill points attributes when I did most of the RWC 2011 editing project for PS3 on the forums a while back and I was very careful with all teams to recognise talent that was ignored by the developers in so called tier 2 and the bottom of tier 1 teams.

Yeah, I wasn't having a go, and understood the point you were making just the end bit "sides of that sort of quality." made me a little :/ even though I know there is no harm intended.

 

[psychic duck]

1. No one is saying France have not been helpful to tier 2/3 teams. Of course they have. They've been inept in their own way, essentially forcing a minority of players to not play for their national teams, but on the whole their professional set up has helped teams like Argentina, Canada, Georgia, USA, Romania et al grow from training their players to be professional. No one has disputed that. And the French clubs benefit from some of the great players they have produced and signed. But the reality is, New Zealand cannot afford to provide the same level of help. We don't have millionaires backing our franchises in the same way the French do so we can't pay those players as much. Our big carrot is an All Black jersey, which doesn't do much for players in Canada, USA and Argentina. We also only have five professional teams to pick our own players from, as apposed to the 30 odd that France has, so we have less room to take on imports and still develop world class players (who on ommission would not doubt play in France for more money).

yeah okay, you make a fair point here

I think the Super Rugby structure though isn't great, it would be better to be structured more like Europe in my opinion

South Africa, Argentina, and since Australia couldn't manage a pro league by themselves they could with New Zealand and there would be three professional leagues with about 8-12 teams, and a Heineken Cup style competition involving all four nations best teams

the more teams would open up more space for Samoans, Fijians etc to make up the numbers

do you think that would work?

You would think so...

The problem with this is, Super Rugby is still used as a development tool for young NZ players. It's not about results like that. Interestingly, starters for French teams often wouldn't make the top four in Super Rugby. Not always, but often. Look at the players who weren't good enough for NZ franchises that have glowed for French teams. Census Johnston and Soane Tonga'uiha looked decidedly average in New Zealand before playing in France and England and being considered two of the best props in the world (despite NZ always being told they've got weak scrums). Plenty of players who didn't get many games of Super Rugby went on to star in France, especially in the wing department.

Sereli Bobo (who used to play for my club Johnsonville) was behind Hosea Gear, Lome Fa'atau and Ma'a Nonu in 2004 before being snatched up by an Italian team Parma, and then to Biarritz and now starting for Racing Metro 98

Villimoni Delasau was rated behind Rico Gear, Scott Hamilton and Caleb Ralph (lol) in 2005 (playing only 4 matches) before joining the Highlanders. In the Highlanders he did a bit better playing in 8 matches but still being behind Ben Blair and Roy Kinikinilau.

Viliame Waqaseduadua was rated behind Anthony Tuitavake, Doug Howlett, Joe Rokocoko, Mils Muliaina at the Blues and Sivivatu, Lelia Masaga, Mils Muliaina at the Chiefs. He was then picked up by Brive who he started much of the season.

all those players (apart from Waqaseduadua) have done well in Europe

is this because they were all prejudiced against in selection because they are non NZ qualified?

Delasau and Bobo had some pretty good All Blacks ahead of them though

but I'm surprised Tonga'uiha and Johnston weren't impressive in NZ, maybe there is a different emphasis of what a prop should be in Europe than NZ, as Hayman hasn't done too well in France and is on the Toulon bench behind the Georgian Kubriashvili

 

[Darwin]

The mathematical argument says there should be more imports in Super Rugby - in all the sides. The fact that the number is so low suggests that things could be different - something thats been covered in this debate.

Can the sides make do without imports? Yes, and this has been the point all along. The players are there but there are better ones who could be snapped up but it is not only, firstly, such a rare thing to see but the players are, secondly, not welcomed and its hard to find a Kiwi poster on this thread saying otherwise. The suggestion that Imhoff is of Super Rugby standard got the response of you don´t know anything about New Zealand rugby. All this does is backs up these two points. Add to this the mathematics which Smartcooky concludes as being not hugely different, but harder for France, and maybe, just maybe, some of you can appreciate why some people, like myself and Psychic Duck have said what we have.

There are posters here laying down bait asking for all Kiwi Super Rugby wingers to be rated. No need to do so whatsoever and its clear that the result would merely see a repeat of posters saying this only shows how little you know of New Zealand rugby. International standard differs per team as there are specified tiers and even tiers within tiers. Max Evans has been mentioned. Clearly of Super Rugby standard. He played vs Imhoff two weeks back for Castres vs Racing Metro. Just a little example of how interesting the Top 14 is.

Really :lol:
You have been repeatedly trumpeting 'New Zealand don't have 20 quality wings' as though it is known fact. When posters have named 20 (or more) quality wings you have ignored this, and continued to trumpet 'New Zealand don't have 20 quality wings'. When asked to explain why any of these wings are not of Super Rugby standard (simply asking you to backup your statements), these kiwi posters are apparently 'laying down bait' :lol:

http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/member.php?38640-TRF_nickdnzhttp://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/member.php?38640-TRF_nickdnzTRF_nickdnz has outlined the reason why there aren't that many imports in Super Rugby very well in his post, so I don't think there is any point in going into any further detail.

Juan Imhoff has been a revelation this year for Argentina,he was the leading try scorer in the Vodacom Cup and nominated for player of the year, has looked far too good for amateur defences back in Argentina and has a phenomenal strike rate back there, and when he played for Argentina he has looked impressive as well

you're right he hasn't played too much at that high a level, but he has looked a class apart from the level he's been playing at and done well when he's had an opportunity at international level, he did well on his debut for Racing and played a role in their winning try against Castres, and had a quiet second match but it's too early too judge yet

I would say he is ahead in development than a rookie fourth choice NZ winger, as he has won a contract with one of France's top clubs, which I doubt a rookie fourth choice winger could do

Thanks for that - he certainly looks a talented player. His development may be ahead of a 4th choice rookie Super Rugby wing, but again it is hard to compare: I'd be disappointed in any Super Rugby wing that couldn't carve up in the Vodacom Cup (and Argentinian club rugby)! He certainly looks to have plenty of speed, and is very elusive. His RWC profile has him listed at 84kg - do think that is correct? If it is, he could probably put on a few kg's given his height (1.84m).

I can't wait for the "The Rugby Championship" to start next year so I can learn a lot more about Argentina's players. Incidentally once this competition starts I think it is going to be much easier for Argentina's players to get spots in the NZ Super Rugby franchises. Franchise coaches will see more of these players live, and possibly even get a chance to meet with prospective players when they are in NZ each year (Haskell apparently met with Highlanders coach Jamie Joseph while the England team was in Dunedin).

all those players (apart from Waqaseduadua) have done well in Europe

is this because they were all prejudiced against in selection because they are non NZ qualified?

Delasau and Bobo had some pretty good All Blacks ahead of them though

but I'm surprised Tonga'uiha and Johnston weren't impressive in NZ, maybe there is a different emphasis of what a prop should be in Europe than NZ, as Hayman hasn't done too well in France and is on the Toulon bench behind the Georgian Kubriashvili

Not at all - the likes of Tonga'uiha and Johnston struggled to make ITM Cup sides when they were in NZ as they weren't good enough. They weren't even close to getting near Super Rugby teams. Despite being huge, both were very poor scrummagers when they were in NZ - so much so that they were exposed at ITM Cup level. They have both obviously improved this area since they have moved to Europe. I still don't think either is a great technical scrummager, but they have enough technique now to use in combination with their immense size to mean they are no longer liability in the scrum (and indeed I understand Tonga'uiha is considered a pretty strong scrummager now).

Delasau/Bobo certainly weren't prejudiced against in selection either. They were both selected for Super rugby squads (despite their ineligibility for the AB's) - they just struggled to establish themselves as regular Super Rugby players, despite the chances they got.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

but the players are, secondly, not welcomed and its hard to find a Kiwi poster on this thread saying otherwise. The suggestion that Imhoff is of Super Rugby standard got the response of you don´t know anything about New Zealand rugby.

That's not what was implied by the kiwi posters, they've merely said that there are plenty of kiwi players of Super 14 level that are around his level (some very marginally below, some better) available. In the interests of the future of New Zealand rugby being able to stay strong, we need to develop our own talent in these competitions firstly. No-one said that Imhoff wasn't good enough or wouldn't be welcomed to New Zealand. No-one has criticised James Haskell being taken by the Highlanders!

New Zealand Super 15 teams need to weigh up a variety of factors when looking at imports.

1. Will there be someone that we can grow into a strong player with All Blacks potential from our junior ranks (we owe it to them first and foremost).

2. Are we likely to potentially keep an import in New Zealand for 8-10 years as their talent increases (maybe not, as they won't likely have family or long standing connections to keep them here when their price increases and we can't afford them).

3. Theres always the potential that an import may suddenly have a family or personal crisis, for which they may need to fly halfway around the world and it might keep them out of action longer.

4. Will there be language and cultural barriers that may make for less time getting down to business and more time attending to this?

5. Will overseas scouts notice them right away, realise the weaker market position of New Zealand Super Rugby teams (most make nothing or losses overall), and chase them the whole time they are here (huge distraction).

There are a lot of issues that come to the table that don't when you look at homegrown players. I'd suggest that some of the New Zealand wingers mentioned may not be as good as the likes of Imhoff, true. Still, if your rating them out of 100, Imhoff might be an 82 and some of these guys might be 79-81. Is that small difference (that might be coached up in the weaker player), really worth jumping through all the potential hoops for and then risking developing one less local talent? Often not.

 

[William18]

This thread is still going is it? I stopped posting on page one and we are still debating the same stuff.

I highly doubt that there are 20 wingers in New Zealand who are better than Juan Imhoff even though I have hardly ever seen him play. However, there probably are at least ten wingers better than him. What this means is that Imhoff would not start for any of our super rugby sides. No franchise here will want to sign him as to compete with European clubs they would have to pay him more than we pay our starting wingers. Why would Imhoff want to come here? He would get less money and barely get on the field.

Melhor what do you think we should do? Should we spend ridiculous amounts of money signing imports to sit on the bench? I am a Hurricanes season ticket holder. I hope that the franchise will use the money I give them and then reinvest it into grassroots. I would not be happy if they spent my money acquiring someone who will only sit on the bench.

The sole difference in philosophy is that while Melhor expects the NZRU to bankrupt itself to serve the international game, we believe it should serve rugby in this country. It is, after all, the NZRU. We expect them as an organisation to put their own country first. Every single rugby board around the world puts the interests of their own country ahead of the interests of others. The New Zealand government spent 25.3 billion on social welfare last year but only about 500 million on foreign aid. Why? It is because you must look after yourselves first. Even though New Zealand is a more affluent country than most both in general and in rugby we put our own interests ahead of those less fortunate. It is the IRB's job to spread the game around the world (and they have been doing a fine job at that too) not ours.

 

[nickdnz]

yeah okay, you make a fair point here

I think the Super Rugby structure though isn't great, it would be better to be structured more like Europe in my opinion

South Africa, Argentina, and since Australia couldn't manage a pro league by themselves they could with New Zealand and there would be three professional leagues with about 8-12 teams, and a Heineken Cup style competition involving all four nations best teams

the more teams would open up more space for Samoans, Fijians etc to make up the numbers

do you think that would work?



all those players (apart from Waqaseduadua) have done well in Europe

is this because they were all prejudiced against in selection because they are non NZ qualified?

Delasau and Bobo had some pretty good All Blacks ahead of them though

but I'm surprised Tonga'uiha and Johnston weren't impressive in NZ, maybe there is a different emphasis of what a prop should be in Europe than NZ, as Hayman hasn't done too well in France and is on the Toulon bench behind the Georgian Kubriashvili

Your proposed professional set up is actually exactly what I would like. I'd like for NZ to put all their money and sponsorship in the ITM Cup and get rid of the Super Rugby set up. Then out of the 14 teams in the ITM Cup, you could have a secondary tornement much like the one in the H-Cup, in which the top teams from the ITM Cup would play the top teams from the Currie Cup, the current Australian teams (unless they actually decide to put a domestic competition back up, which would help out a huge amount) and maybe a couple of teams from the top Japan league and Argentina. For the lower teams they can enter a secondary tornement based in one location like the Amlin Challenge Cup with a guarenteed position at the top level as the carrot. That way you'd be throwing all the money into one basket in terms of development, but on the whole it should allow more spaces and top level development, while offering a tornement that the regions in NZ still care about.

I do like that set up, and I'd be hoping the inclusion of Japan would pay for itself in terms of sponsorship. For what ever reason though, the NZRU don't see the ITM Cup as the way forward, but more a development tornement in which players get exposure to top level rugby. I'd like to see it being the main tornement. The big issue is yet again, instead of paying five teams money, the NZRU have to pay for 14 teams players, which they do already at a much lower amount, with only the top players getting Super Rugby contracts.

In terms of following the French setup, it can't be exactly like it, as there just aren't the millionaires to privatise the clubs, and I'm not sold on it being a good idea for the national setup regardless.

I'm pretty sure there is no discrimination to any of the players because of eligability. In fact players like Bobo and Delasau were selected on top of great form for their countries at 7's. They just didn't quite deliver the same way as some of the other players. I'm not saying that they are not good enough now to play in a team, both of whom I'd probably say could start for the Hurricanes given they were signed now. The point I was trying to make, is that the players whom are now world class wingers were fourth choice NZ wingers, and there is nothing to say some of the fourth choice wingers in the current NZ set up won't become equally as good given room for development. It'll just be a shame if we lose them to a French team because we didn't select them over an Argentian winger who is more or less the same quality, if not a little better at this stage.

In terms of Tonga'uiha and Johnston, they were poor scrummagers in NZ and had a relatively poor work rate. I don't think there is hugely different values in either the French and NZ set ups when selecting props. I have found New Zealand props will often be valued a little more for mobility than in some of the French teams, however I think the big thing is that some players shine in different set ups. Hayman was a beast in NZ at every level, even international in which most regarded him as the best TH prop in the world (some say ever). He was a monster scrummager and had a good work rate. He then went on to captain the NC Falcons, in which he was still held as their best player by far. He then goes to Toulon and everything seemed to change. For some reason or another he's not performing at the level he should. He's arguably in his prime as a prop, so I don't think it's that he's a much worse player physically, he's just not in an enviroment where Toulon are seeing the best out of him. I have no doubt that if he returned to NZ, he could be world class again. thein wy I dfo.